Ron Borges' top 10 Mexican fighters of all time

I can't belive Mantequilla is even debating Sadlivar's placing; the guys f'n awesome, no.5 in my Mexican ATG list.

1. Chavez
2. Olivares

depending on what mood I'm in, the above two can change.

3. Canto
4.Sanchez
5. saldivar
6. Zarate
7. Kid Azteca (only found out about this guy a few months ago)
8. Barrera
9. Marquez
10. Morales

Bar him losing to Armstrong I don't know enough of Arizmendi to rank him. I will have to find out more.
In terms of Zarate>Barrera, Zarate was a dominant Bantam for quite a while; wins over Zamora (in terms of pure punching power above Olivares IMO, didn't have the all-round game or delivery though) Davila; Batista; Rodolfo Martinez all very good wins (the latter two based on actually seeing the fights and seeing that those opponents were decent rather than Batista actually doing much post-Zarate, the Martinez fight is the first time Zarate is visibly stunned from what I can see) plus his 'win' over Pintor (IMO anyway) place him very high;

Unlike Barrera, his losses to Fenech/Gomez are of the very highest quality opposition; Junior Jones, not so much.

However, I feel Barrera's win over a not-quite-so-good-anymore Hamed (and the way in which he did it, winning 10-2 IMO) trumps Morales' best win over pre-prime Pac.

They are very hard to seperate though, I personally feel Barrera was the better fighter though. He got better as he went on, Morales just stayed the same, his lack of defence and ability to use his advantages really harmed him as he moved through weights/advancing years.

Only my opinion, and totally up for debate, I just feel Zarate was better than those two :good

I place Marquez over Morales because I rate like this;

WHO DID THEY BEAT?

WHEN DID THEY BEAT THEM?

HOW DID THY BEAT THEM?

So whislt Marquez has a few dodgy fights, his fantastic technique, punching form and very good wins over Casamayor, Diaz, and the way he dealt with a far better version of Pac (again, only my opinion, I give Marquez huge credit for the super-feather rematch which I scored 115-112 for Marquez) place him above Morales.

 

I think it's a very good list. Fleaman is right about Olivares>Lopez, also Canto>Lopez

 

Go ahead Flea, dissect it like Morales dissected Espadas in the rematch.

 

Thing is, in terms of 'pure ability' Lopez is up there with the best of them, let alone the best Mexicans.

However, he had little to no inside game. That hampers him ranking as an 'all-rounder', something which I failed to spot in my all-out adoration for him when I first got into him.

His punching form from mid-range is second-to-none, his combinations and the way he keeps on his toes are awe-inspiring.

But, like Floyd Jr now, I cannot see him as an 'all-conquerer' until he proves his skillset against someone that could genuinely test it.

Unfortunately for Finito,l he never really had that fight. Despite his limitations, Carbajal would've given him that fight.

Saldivar fought an absolute fantastic technician in Winstone, and beat him every time. I still wanna' see Jofre vs Saldivar, although both past prime any display of Jofre's immense punching power is always welcome :good

 

Alvarez certainly presented that type of fight and Lopez didnt handle it all that well.

 

I agree with everything here really. The only thing is that i rate Floyd's skills, he's an all round man imo. I was talking about the Winstone the other day to a mate, and the likes of Valdez etc, quality (Valdez) and great (Winstone) fighters who fought in the era of a dominant legend.

 

I agree, Floyd has way more dimension to his game than Lopez ever did.

 

Yeah. Probably the only thing Lopez did better was the combos in mid ring, say before any developments had come in the fight. Floyd did it against Gatti but the opportunity was staring him in the face there. That's not Floyd's style really though so we can't hold that against him, he's more the boxer who occupies your mind with jabs to the body, a bit of defensive prowess etc, before he unloads. Quality.

 

More than happy to do so Addie, and as I said it's purely subjective, all based on opinions.

Now, Marquez is the 'better' fighter IMO. Better punching form, as good power (which carried up in weight) and just as durable, slightly harder to hit but here's the thing; he's adaptable.

Morales never really had a plan B IMO. Technically he was massively flawed, he had zero defence.

Now, these 3 (Barrera, Marquez, Morales) are real close IMO. On certain days I'll have Morales over Marquez, but invariably have Barrera as the best out of the 3.

As I said, even allowing for some of Marquez's dodgy featherweight performances (I mean, seeing how he takes the fight to people nowadays can you imagine the fighter once labelled as 'defensive' to lose a decision to Chris John, Marquez is thrice the offensive fighter Juarez is) and has also carried his form over time.

So Marquez's longevity (granted, Morales' style didn't exactly allow for much of that) improved technique, and decent wins (on a par with Morales IMO, although I feel Morales' 126 legder is fairly underrated, he'd make a fight out of anything, remember the In-Jin Chi fight, Chi was tough but not on Morales' level) improved technique and better showing against a better version of Pac (I'm one of those who thinks Morales' Winning gloves made a big difference in the first fight) PLUS his improved resume at Lightweight (even accounting for Raheem's trickiness and the close fight with David Diaz, who even with the extra weight was not on Morales' level as a fighter) make up for the losses against Chris John and Norwood.

Again, Morales may be higher tomorrow. He has decent wins over faded Zaragoza, and as Teeto pointed out, beat Espedas soundly twiceand one win I felt was really good (and somewhat forgotten) was Ayala, who had taken Tapia's '0' (albeit at a lower weight)

As you can see, I find it REAL hard to seperate the two. Ask me tomorrow and I might say Morales, but I feel there isn't too much to seperate in terms of resume, and that Marquez has the superior skillset.

Sorry to Bill Butcher if I've upset him:good

 

Not in the first fight no. But Alvarez was tough and Lopez was certainly nearing the end of his peak.

I feel he would've cemented his greatness if he'd moved up 93-95 and fought those two. :good

 

Sorry but i've got to give my opinion on Marquez here. I don't see the adaptability to be honest, not to any extent for me to wax lyrical on his versatility. He never had good footwork or mobility, not on offense for sure anyway, in terms of cutting off the ring etc. Remember when Gainer was shitting himsefl actually running around the ring, Marquez had to chase him, even Hilario Zapata or Cory Spinks would have had to take on the Joe Frazier mentality there. And it just made for something less than nice to watch, Marquez wasn't about footwork at all imo, ever. He has absolutely fantastic combination punches, and likes for opponents to come to him so he can unleash them. It's not too far removed from Ike Williams in his essence (though he could mix it) Walking into his range is a nightmare. It's like how people don't like to think of Toney as one dimensional but i'll say it about him as well, his one dimension was counterpunching where he stood. The one dimensional argument is not exclusively there for application to sluggers and brawlers.

The style on paper to beat Marquez is the same as that for Toney, you use footwork. Mayweather did it so so well. Moving just one step this way, one step that way. Because Marquez can't keep up with that kind of constant change, he just coudn't get set. Now here's the thing, i have to sing Marquez' praises. He was so good at what he did that even if someone who was not of his level had the style advantage, he would still beat them regardless. Look at Chris John, his style, he's the pure boxer, he should beat Marquez who's looking for you to come to him to be countered and hit back. Marquez countered him regardless, and beat him (celar imo), sometimes style match up is overriden by the gap in class.

That's something i feel strong about to be honest.

I personally reckon the best Morales woudl beat the best Marquez. Oh what a fight it would be, but regardless of Marquez being able to find Morales with the accurate stuff, Morales just loved to fight guys. He was a force of nature at his best.

 

I know KID AZTECAs history and he is a pioneer of mexican boxing along with Baby arizmendi but for as much as I think about him, I just cant see putting him over Lopez,Barerra,Morales,Marquez.