Ron Lyle vs Cleveland Williams

I dont know about that, It is just as fair to say terrel improved after this win. Williams peaked here and it was not enough to beat a still improving terrell.

Wiliams was a big, game, hard hitting handfull for anyone - thats quite something - but the truth is he had been around a long time already without making the grade. Even If clevland had not been shot by a police man he wasnt going to get better.

We cannot supose or give the big cat a free pass just because Williams fits a criteria of what future heavyweights might look like. He gave Liston a good fight and lost both times but so did burt whitehurst. Nobody cares about Burt because he was a little guy who was matched harder and lost more fights than williams did.

 

Lyle destroys the nobody. If the 6'1 212 pounder liston was too much for williams the 6'3 220 muscular pounder would be a hell

 

This idiot overrating liston and his rival in order to give liston more credit make me sick

 

yeah, you get made sick way too easy :deal

 

Ron Lyle in 3.

 

Lyle in 5

 

Cleveland Williams is underrated in my opinion.
I thought he deserved the decision against Ernie Terrell, a fighter he's already stopped. Also he possibly deserved the decision against Eddie Machen, which was a draw anyway.
Those were the two best available American heavyweights outside of Liston and Clay/Ali at the time. Unless you count Patterson.
Clay's management ducked Williams in 1963.
Williams was set for another rematch with Terrell if I remember rightly, a 15-rounder, when he got shot.

 

When exactly did Ali duck Williams in 63 because by mid 63 he was in line for a title shot and a fight against Williams made no sense, especially after williams lost to terrell in April of that year. A fight with Williams for most of 1963 would have been a backwards step. Thats not ducking thats just management 101.

 

Like always your argument is based on fantasy . he deserved . he should have won. He could...garbage

 

I thought he won the fight. Terrell spent the whole time holding. You could say the fight was close, I thought Williams won it. I saw the fight, it happened, it was no fantasy.

You fantasise about Ron Lyle.
Lyle LOST to little Quarry and Young TWICE, decisions were not even close.
Lyle drew with little Peralta.

Lyle was KO'd by Alli, Foreman, LYNN BALL and Gerry C00ney.

Yet you think he's some sort of monster.

 

Frank Bruno was 6'3 and a muscular 246 when he fought Tyson second time around. I take it he cleans out Liston and Lyle based on this.

I don't see any evidence in Lyle's record that he destroys Williams who was far from a nobody. Apart from Shavers, Ron's biggest wins were decisions over Bonavena, Ellis, Ledoux and Bugner. Other than that, in top company, he lost.

You're being a bit naughty F&D. You're bigging up Lyle to make your man Foreman look better. It's enough to make a man sick.

 

Williams lost to: Chuvalo, O'Halloran, Sylvester Jones,Cleroux, Terrell.

Williams drew with little Eddie Machen (who was the same height, had a shorter reach, and weighed less than Peralta when he drew with Lyle.

Williams was KOd by Ali, Satterfield, Liston 2x, Blue Lewis, Mac Foster 2x, Al Jones

Yet you think hes some sort of monster.

 

- Well, I'm sure for when Greb was calling out Dempsey in 1918 you have a different opinion.

- It's not a backward step, when Clay had only been matched with the less threatening contenders in the rankings at that point.
*ANCIENT Archie Moore, somewhere between 45 and 49 years old.
*Doug Jones, a natural light-heavy who Ali struggled with
*Henry Cooper, a journeyman contender really.

Beating Williams would have proved something more. Or Terrell, or Machen for that matter.
Williams was Clay's size, and fast and could hit.
Also, it would have made his management an extra payday before the Liston fight. If it was seen as low risk they would have taken it.

The Dundees admitted they steered Ali around Williams.
Williams was probably avoided by other guys at various times too. Because when it came to it his manager threw him in with a prime Sonny Liston twice, so I doubt it was them doing all the ducking.

Truth is, the man's record stands up a lot better than some of you guys make out.

 

On the contrary, I'm merely arguing that he's a lot better than you guys go on like.
He's probably no more of a monster than Lyle, in my opinion. But I'm not dismissing Lyle's chances or constantlly implying he was some sort of fraud, as you seem to do with Williams.

Machen was beter than Peralta.
better than Quarry too, as it happens.

 

_ Cleveland Williams was an old veteran fighter or 35 + and who had been a professional for about 15+ years when he lost most of those fight mentioned. He's also been shot with a .357 through the torso when he was in his prime.

- Defeats to Sylvester Jones and Bob Satterfield (where he came in as a LATE SUB) happened in his first 2 1/2 years as a professional.

- There's a stretch of 14 years where his only defeats are to Ali and Liston and a very debatable decision loss to Terrell that I believe he won.

therefore i submit that maybe he was quite good.