Ron Lyle vs Cleveland Williams

Would you like me to scour your future posts with a fine tooth comb just in case?

 

We have? I categorically proved that Ellis was indeed rated and I would do the same for middleton if I though it would make a bit of difference. But it wont. Youve proven long ago that your hero worship of Williams isnt based on fact or substance and that you are more than willing to lie, like you are doing here once again, in order to maintain your fantasy. You said it best yourself in this post “I believe” “I believe” “I believe”…. Yeah, keep your alternative facts all you want.

 

Excellent post klompton2.

 

You proved Ellis was rated… by the WBA and WBC NOT the Ring which as multiple people in this thread have demonstrated are far more reliable.

Prove me wrong and I’ll gladly concede.

Funny you’re calling me a liar when you’ve lied multiple times in this thread alone, and lied previously about Williams never being ranked during Patterson’s career.

Some “historian” you are.

You are among the most untrustworthy and unreliable posters on this forum.

If you told me 1+1 is 2, I’d have to pull out a calculator and confirm for myself.

 

Hard pass.

 

I'm not 100% on the period, but Shavers was back in the ratings at #9 at the end of April 1975, so I imagine he was ranked when he fought Lyle in September. Which would mean that in terms of wins against Ring-ranked contenders Lyle and Williams are dead level on 3 each.

Feels like the more time we spend debating whose ratings to use, and whether a fighter was ranked in this or that specific month, the more it highlights what a blunt instrument it is for determining whether an opponent was any good or not.

 

Excellent post. Looks like me and Kompton were both wrong. I’ll gladly concede the point. We all know he won’t though.

 

Speaking of your precious infallible alphabet ratings @klompton2, can you tell me what Williams WBA rating was when he was shot?

 

No, just you. Even by your precious Ring ratings Lyle still defeated more ranked fighters.

If we are going by Ring magazine ratings you can still count Lyle as having beaten more top ten rated fighters than Williams, because if you drop the guys Ring DIDNT rank at the time you also have to add the guys they did. That means Stan Ward gets into the list:

Bonavena (6)
Shavers (7)
Ward (10)
Bugner (10)

So I guess youll have to go shopping around AGAIN for a set of ratings thats more favorable to your guy... And of those guys that Lyle beat, we still talk about Bonavena, Shavers, and Bugner. Nobody ever talks about Daniels and Miteff and for good reason. Guys like Bugner, Shavers, Bonavena, and Ellis were rated for YEARS by any set of ratings you wish to go by. Miteff and Daniels were literally rated for a month or two here and there and had ZERO staying power. They have a combined record of 48-34-5. Yes, they lost almost half of their fights combined. So if you want to sit here and pretend like Williams beat the better more accomplished fighters go ahead but I believe most unbiased observers can see through this fantasy.

 

Are you absolutely sure you want to stick with the claim that Alex Miteff was only ever rated for "a month or two here and there"?

 

I guess that depends on which rankings you want to shop around for to suit your argument...

Are you sure you want to compare Alex Miteff to guys like Bonavena and Ellis, which is the point I was making? No? Didnt think so.

 

Not really. Go ahead and point out the ratings body which only ever rated Miteff (or Daniels) for "a month or two here and there".

 

Again, I didnt think so. Because while some here were questioning Bonavena being rated when he fought Lyle he was indeed rated in the top ten from October 1966 until his death 1976 barring two short non-consecutive periods totalling five months when he was inactive due to injuries and legal issues. Most of that time he was ranked in the top five and reached as high as #1. So again, if you want to sit here and pretend like Williams beat better fighters then by all means continue down the road to fantasy land. The reality is that Miteff, who I was comparing to guys like Bonavena, was a fringe contender who had been rated for only two months prior to facing Williams and had won just one of his last four fights. He finished his career with a record of 25-13-1 and 8 of those losses were by KO. And yet this guy youve chosen to try to use as some foil for me remains the only top ten contender that Williams (who was supposedly some MASSIVE puncher) stopped. And if you want to really hang your hat on him being ranked more than a couple of months here and there: He was ranked for three months in 1958 no higher than 7 before falling out of the rankings. He came back in two months later at 9. Continued in the rankings through August of the following year (1959) climbing as high as 5 for only two months but bouncing mostly between 9 and 7 before falling out again. He reappeared a year later at 7, dropped to 9 the following month, went up to 8 for three months thereafter, dropped out of the ratings again. He reappeared two months later at 9 where he stayed for two months until Williams stopped him. Did he stay longer than a couple of months here and there yes, was it substantial? Did he make a mark? No. Again, my point in comparing him to guys like Bonavena, Ellis, and Bugner stand. The fact is that Williams didnt even beat the best HW contender from Argentina much less anywhere else.

 

Thank you. Buried somewhere near the end of that paragraph-free rant is an acknowledgement that your claim that Miteff and Daniels were only ever ranked for "a month or two here and there" was wildly inaccurate. I really feel you're growing as a person.