Ron Lyle vs Cleveland Williams

Do you have a source for Ward having any ranking? I certainly can't find any.

On the contrary. "Ron Lyle ranked no. 3 challenger does against undefeated but unranked Stan Ward" Source: https://www.newspapers.com/image/85246291/?match=1&clipping_id=141577814

Certainly wouldn't be the first time you made a mistake regarding ratings.

You also previously made a claim that Williams "barely beat Daniels" despite scores of 98-93, 97-92, and 98-91 in the first bout.

And two scores of 100-88 and one score of 100-89 (you also laughably didn't know Williams dropped Daniels, despite claiming to be some sort of expert on the era).

If that qualifies as "barely beating" someone, I'm curious as to how you feel about Lyle-Ward. " In the third 10-round fight, third-ranked' Ron Lyle, 220, of Denver came away with an unpopular majority decision over relatively inexperienced 27-year old Stan Ward, 236 1/2, of Sacramento.

Judges Lou Tabal and Hal Miller both scored il 46-45 for Lyle, while judge Bill Tipp had it dead even al 45-46. A sparse crowd greeted the verdict with thunderous boos. Most observers fell that Ward, now 8-1-2. had scored with sharper punches."
Source: https://www.newspapers.com/article/kingsport-news/141578693/

Unofficial AP scorecard also had it for Ward 47-45.

Bonavena was clearly at the end of the road, and hadn't had a noteworthy win since the 60s. He was also suffering from a liver issue iirc.

Correct. Lyle's best win was beaten by the 21-24 Bob Stallings, who didn't need to be saved by the bell. See how easy it is to play this game?

Bugner had just come out of retirement, and had one win (albeit a very impressive one) over an unranked Dunn, and wouldn't fight again for over three years. It was also a very close fight, with an SD that could've gone either way according to observers and much much closer than either Daniels-Williams fight.

As SolomonDeedes already stated, this is incorrect.

It was known in that era, that Daniels was never the same after losing to Williams in the rematch. He fought on, while he was clearly a shell of himself, which is why he incurred more losses that he most likely wouldn't have in his prime.
" punishing Billy Daniels so much in a ten round decision that Daniels has never been the same fighter since". https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-hanford-sentinel/141585220/
Miteff's losses were to
Ali
Dejohn
Besmanoff
Quarry (after an ill-advised comeback)
Batey
Radamecher
Folley
Billy Hunter
Chuvalo: Two fights where he was blatantly robbed in hometown decisions. In the first fight, when he was knocked down. Instead of being deducted two points by the judges, which would've allowed him to remain the winner, he was deducted three points by one judge, and four by another which is absolutely unheard of and blatant hometown corruption. Even so, he still walked away with a draw.

In the rematch Miteff lost a hometown split decision by half a point..... and in his very next bout would go on to be obliterated by Williams.

All of whom were in the top ten at one point or another with the exception of Batey, which was his only bad loss really.

You could make the same argument for Lyle's wins against rated opposition. For example we know Young was elite for short period of time, but he has 18 losses on his record after all was said and done.

Oh wait, Lyle would've actually had to win that one, for me to make that argument. I withdraw my point.

The irony of you using the word "unbiased". You're one of the most unobjective posters here (which has been demonstrated multiple times in this thread alone), and have a blatant agenda against guys like Williams, Dempsey, Liston (I still remember when you laughably picked Ruddock to KO him), Foreman, among others. It's why many here don't take you seriously as a self claimed expert, and historian (though your attitude, frequent mistakes, and inability to concede make no small part in contributing to your reputation either).

By the way you never answered my question. What was Williams' WBA rating when he was shot? Genuinely curious, as you sure put a lot of stock in them.

 

Me to! That was as close a concession as I’ve ever seen from Compton.

 

Yes, Ring Magazine, you know the magazine who did the only ratings you, in your infinite wisdom, recognize as legitimate...

And Im sure you looked all of 2 seconds.

Oh, so now you want to use the WBA ratings again because it suits your argument... Typical, move the goal posts when it suits your weak ass argument. Ward had been rating in the Ring ratings since at least November of 1976, which would be as long as the longest stretch that Miteff was rated.

The fact that you keep having to ask me to illustrate all of this to you shows that you dont actually know these things despite arguing so passionately about the subject. Hilarious.

You do realize that I can actually watch the fight and dont need to rely on Boxrec to tell me Williams didnt have an easy time with a guy who lost half his fights.

I think it says that Lyle beat more RING rated opponents than Williams did. Otherwise I could care less. Lyle was what 36 or 37 at the time. Arent you the one who has an excuse for every loss for Williams past his prime? Fair play right? Except unlike you I couldnt give two shits because I have no deep emotional attachment to Lyle beyond thinking he was much better than Williams overrated ass.

And yet he was still rated, where he had been for the vast majority of a decade. No matter how much you like it. Which, combined with the other Ring rated opponents of Lyles means Lyle defeated more rated opponents than Williams, my initial point. The fact that he was still a good fighter, and proved it in the Lyle fight, which only one of us has seen (me). Is just the icing on the cake when compared to Miteff or Daniels who had dog**** records.

Yeah its just a lot easier with the two "contenders" Williams managed to defeat in his LONG career.

If you have a problem with Bugner being rated I would suggest you take it up with someone else.

Of course it was easier to beat Daniels, Bugner was a better fighter.

I would say excuses are like assholes, everybody has one, but you have a million assholes, I mean excuses, for why Williams career didnt amount to a hill of beans and why he could only manage three wins against two mediocre fringe contenders and only score one knockout despite being supposedly such a powerful puncher.

Said the guy who gets out the lotion everytime one of his alts post about Williams...

He was rated 2 (the highest ranking he ever got and the only time he got that high) for three months before he got caught drunk driving, tried to flee and assault a police officer, resist arrest, and got shot...

 

So provide your evidence. Should be easy enough.

I admittedly don't have access to the ratings information that you do. That being said, I've looked at multiple pre fight and post fight reports, and while all of them list Lyle's rankings, not one of them list anything about Stan being ranked by any organization.

I'm asking you to "illustrate all of this" because you're making all of these claims without proof. And your word has proven to be untrustworthy time and time again, so I'm certainly not taking your word for it.

You've proven you can't analyze for **** and don't know what the **** you're watching time and time again.

Like your laughable claim that Liston was scared against Martin.

Or even better that Lyle was outboxing Ali, and only lost because of a controversial stoppage.

Actually I think my favorite was you insisting Williams was the same fighter after the shooting as he was before, and that you saw no difference. So I'm comfortable with the notion that you have no idea what you're watching, despite having all this footage.

Edit: I think my favorite was your thinly veiled implication that Quarry and Ellis hit harder than Williams.

You've still provided zero proof Ward had any top ten rating when he faced Lyle.

It was literally four fights after a consensus career best performance against Foreman.

Oh yeah I forgot, in your medical opinion he made a complete recovery, but decided to partake in a diet that made him lose 60 pounds.

I'll say this, as bad of a historian, and expert you are, thank God you didn't decide to become a doctor.

You clearly have a "deep emotional attachment" to Williams as multiple posters here have pointed out.

At least those two contenders weren't coming off a loss against the likes of Bob ****ing Stallings less than a year prior.

You realize this same Lyle you're praising also only scored one KO over rated opposition right?
Even taking your word that Ward was rated (which again you've still yet to prove), Lyle went the distance with a faded Ellis (who Shavers knocked out in a single round when Ellis was no. 3 by the WBC), went life and death with obscure Stan Ward, and managed an SD against Bugner that could've went either way, and only managed one KO over a rated opponent in Shavers.

1. I don't have any alts. I only have one account, I don't have any need, nor time to make another.

2. You're the only person making sexual comments regarding Williams and his physique. Are you sure you're not projecting your feelings?

So according to the WBA, the organization you put sooo much stock in, ranked Williams as the third best heavy in the world. Maybe they're not so bad after all.

 

Hey quick question, Was Williams ever the number one contender for WBA? I found an article the other day, criticizing the WBA for changing their number one contender from Williams to Terrell in a matter of weeks, or something along those lines but I unfortunately can't find the article anymore.

 

I don't think so, although when I thought about the question I realised that I can't find complete WBA listings for the end of September 1964, and if Williams was ever going to be #1 that would have been the time. That was the month Williams - already #2 - dominated 8th ranked Billy Daniels (or "squeaked by" if you live on planet Klompton).

As far as I know Williams was never higher than #2, but if you find that article again I'd like to read it!

 

Laughed out loud at this. Apparently winning every single round, dropping your opponent, getting a 10-8 on one card, and two 10-8s on the other two card constitutes "squeaking by", and "barely beating" somebody. Some expert.

Will take a good look for that article. I'm off work today and on break from college, so I'll have a little more time to comb through everything.

 

I appreciate the effort you put into your posts. Not this one or any in particular (though I agree with a lot of the points your raising) but as someone with a lot of extra resources for historical knowledge and seeing fights that aren’t public your posts don’t go to waste. Thanks SK.

 

Since I like Big Cat and Lyle the same, I am kinda neutral in this one.

I have enjoyed reading the whole thread, although I am quite surprised on how much stock and passion is put on two fighters who were just fringe contenders at the best.

 

This is a decent hypothetical where these guys are not pitted against a great. I would take Williams to win…but it’s a decent fight with not a lot separating them IMO

 

Found it!!!!!!

"In the last few weeks it [The WBA] has come up with two fighters it considers "no. 1 challenger" and nobody has had to throw a punch. First it was Cleveland Williams and now it's Ernie Terrell". Don't hold your breath but next week it could be Zora Folley or Roy Harris from Cut 'n Shoot, Texas"

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/article/spokane-chronicle/141409910/

 

Intriguing. Taking it literally, "the last few weeks" implies that Williams was #1 until his gunshot wound less than three weeks before this was printed. Everything I've seen indicates that Terrell was #1 at that point, so it may well just be a mistake. Strange thing to come up with out of nowhere, though.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=nGUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4541,1317893&hl=en

 

I'll do further research on the matter. If Williams was indeed #1, I'll gladly change my tune and concede to Compton that the WBA ratings are FAR superior to the ring or that of any other organization.

 

Lyle would beat the crap out of a Williams, if Mac Foster could do that Lyle could do that too.