Ron Lyle vs Sonny Liston primes

Read my other posts.

 

Liston by ko

 

Ron is a tough man, but he is not on Sonny's level. Sonny in 6

 

Again, their resumes simply don't support the notion, that Lyle was a superior boxer given their track records against actual boxers (Machen for Williams and Young for Lyle). Lyle was perhaps more durable, and did hit hard enough to KO Williams but the same is true vice versa. Williams was faster, seemed like he had more in his bag of tricks, and beat more rated opponents than Lyle (I think Shavers may've been rated but that's it as far as I know. Happy to be proven wrong).

Also if you concede Machen was better than Lyle H2H, you must also factor in Williams drew with him. 2 judges scored it a draw, and the third had Williams clearly ahead.

"Williams, the No. 5 contender, felt he had turned in an upset Most of the crowd of 10,000, partial perhaps to the hometown favorite, and one judge agreed. The referee and one judge scored the fight a draw and the second judge gave Williams a three - point edge." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/50880006/the-bend-bulletin/

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/68996351/the-fresno-bee/ Williams nearly floors Machen here.

“Cleve can punch and he’s fast for a big man. He’s twice as fast as Liston I had to keep on him keep on him keep pressing and keep him from getting set” Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/68996756/the-sacramento-bee/

"Machen said Williams was twice as fast as Sonny Liston" Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/76953678/the-charlotte-news/

 

I'd comfortably favor Liston over Foreman, and his superior boxing skills are one of the main reasons I would do so.

No. And I didn't favor Williams over Lyle based solely on their performances against respective boxers. I used it to illustrate that Lyle may not be the better boxer as you think and is at best, one of many reasons in which I favor Cleveland.

Also, I think Ingo's win over Machen was rather a fluke and he would not be able to replicate it, whereas Young dominated Lyle twice dropping MAYBE 1 round out of 20.

 

Liston actually used his boxing skills and an excellent and underrated defense, oh yeah and a jab, all of which seemed non-existent to Foreman against Lyle. Foreman was also very a shell of himself, coming off a devastating loss 2 years prior, and was trying to fight a style all wrong for him. Even so, it's very likely Foreman would've finished Lyle in the 2nd round (or hurt him badly enough to finish him in the third or shortly thereafter) if not for the premature round end.

Liston also said on more than one occasion that Williams was the hardest puncher he'd ever faced, and even conceded Williams almost knocked him out and remarked "I thought he'd cut my throat"

You could also argue Lyle was saved by the bell against Shavers who to me seemed to be getting the better of the exchanges before gassing out as he was prone to do.

Will delve into the Satterfield loss below.

You simply can't say just become this fighter accomplished this at a certain age, the other fighter should have no problem doing the same. Lyle hadn't even thought about boxing at 20 years old. He hadn't even started until he was 28. Norton didn't even turn pro until he was 24 and was far more experienced than Williams when he lost to Garcia, a much lower level fighter than Satterfield,
Some fighters are in their prime by 20 years old, but those very few had been fighting for years which Williams was not at the time of the Satterfield bout.
It's extremely rare for a man to be in his physical prime at 20 because they are likely lacking in experience, and their body is still most likely developing. The fact that you have to use the youngest heavyweight champions in history to argue otherwise more than proves this point.

Williams and management knew he was at a disadvantage as he was a green 20 year old, undeveloped kid who'd only been fighting for a year with no amateur career to speak of. His manager only took the fight last minute because he owed the promotor a favor.

"Cleveland Williams a 20 year-old heavyweight with the potential ability of a champion, faces the first major test of his three year career tonight when he meets Bob Satterfield of Chicago in the feature 10-round bout at Miami Beach auditorium. Satterfield, a far more experienced fighter is a 7-5 favorite."

"Williams took the Satterfield match on short notice replacing Charley Doc Williams after the latter pulled out of the match."
"His fighter is in perfect physical condition but has had very little sparring. Cleveland has done pretty of road work since beating Jones two weeks ago but did not do any sparring until Sunday."

"but Chris (promoter Dundee) was in a hole and I decided to take Satterfield. I'm as anxious to see this one as you are."

"So we took the gamble. I know Satterfield is a helluva puncher and he's got a big edge in experience."

Source: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=MkRCSU1TY1dfWFJSMWhVRUc4dTBWNWN5dzF2SXBB

Apples and oranges. We can't speculate (well you can but they're 2 different scenarios) because by the time Lyle had turned pro he was 28 years old, fully developed, and had a decorated amateur career, all of which had alluded Williams at the time he faced Satterfield. Even so, had he been thrown in as a last-minute substitute at the beginning of his career against a far more dangerous puncher in Satterfield. He very well may have been knocked out. If you can give an example of a boxer who was favored against a dangerous ranked slugger as a last-minute substitute, I may lend you some credence.

 

It's crazy that Liston has been dead for 50 years and the title fight against patterson was almost 60 years ago.

 

True, Old Mate Sonny looked good in colour, particularly in his methodical dismantling of a young, durable, 6’3 220 lb’r in the form of Henry Clark. Great film that - I give it 4 1/2 out of 5 stars with a more than satisfying ending, all loose ends tied up.

I’m not sure though, I think I prefer the BW, noir ambiance, with the unmistakable air of Liston’s menace and the all round sense of foreboding. Sonny at his true peak. Liston lost a lot of that “magic”in his transition to to colour - certainly, Leotis Martin wouldn’t have dared to be so impudent in the face of BW Sonny. He would’ve likely collapsed from fear shortly after opening bell. Still, Martin ultimately paid a heavy - career ending price for daring to upstage the former BW star.

It seems colour did kill the BW star. Ooh wa ooh.

Methinks Sonny has it all over Ronnie - be it an accented boxing match or punch out. The former method probably being more preferable for Liston, the latter a bit more perilous but Sonny still a solid winner in an abbreviated fight as he was against Big Cat.

Not a slight on Ronnie, more a recommendation of Liston’s own versatility.

 

It’s about 5 1/2 years since Ali’s passing - it will 6 years in June of this year. That seems to have gone fast also.

 

Crazy how recent Ali's death was, especially compared to Liston.

 

Floyd Patterson was 21 on the night of Nov 30 1956 when he kayoed Archie Moore to win the title.