Roy Jones Jr and weight classes

The timing was perfect.

They'd slowed down alot by this point. Jones was in amazing form.

He won every round against Ruiz. Holyfield struggled against Ruiz.

Jones Style beats Holyfield I think.

Tyson fight is 50/50 at this stage in tysons career.

 

No worries mate. Interesting you talk about being mentally prepared. I've always thought that was where RJJ was most lacking as a pro at the highest level and that he prob didn't have as much faith in his ability as you do! He wanted no part of Lewis at HW which was fair enough I guess due to the size difference but in that case he shouldn't have really been shouting his mouth off about being HW champion. So I think getting him in the ring with Wlad is pretty unlikely. I doubt he'd take on Haye either but there is a higher chance of that happening. I don't read too much into the ruiz fight as just because holyfield had an off night doesn't make him anywhere near good enough for me. Another bloated MW in an old Toney made him look a fool (I know the PEDs thing but really?) There are so many good names in his natural weightclasses that he chose not to fight it's hard to believe he'd take on the exceptional champions of the ones outside of his comfort zone.

 

how does that make sense, bearing in mind he was a LWM going all the way up to LH and HW?
**** man, no wonder he got KOed a few times! He was fighting in weight classes way above him. Do you envisage any other outcome?


Put Hagler and Hearns in the ring versus good LH and HWs and they are going to get floored consistently.

 

Can't really compare the durability of hagler and hearns. That was hearns achilles heel and stopped him being a candiate for the greatest boxer ever. He'd been dropped at ww. Hagler had nothing to suggest he would get dropped at LH and had incredible resistance. At heavyweight sure but LH I don't see it. And at heavyweight anybody can be dropped, men that big hitting that hard of course people are going down. Oliver mcCall aside but I think we all agree his ability to take a shot is bordering on superhuman!

 

I think the very best and strongest LHs would stop both Hearns and Hagler, tbf, though Marvin would keep getting back up. But I agree theres a big jump up to HW after that and they'd both be massacred up there


To expect a proper LM or a MW to compete with a superheavyweight like Klit or Lewis is just a silly notion, I meant to say that earlier.

 

Interesting which LH's do you think could drop Hagler?

 

Great reply. I can envisage what you're saying regarding Wlad. I could see Wlad knocking out Roy. But I honestly believe Roy could have won on points. I think his speed would have gained Wlad's respect, and it would have made Wlad cautious, and also Wlad has never had a great chin also. I think it would have been an intriguing fight but one that was uneventful. I think Roy would have been on his bike all night and he'd have ran. I think his footwork would have got him the decision. His single pot shots would have scored him points. I think Vitali would have walked him down, and he'd have been willing to take Roy's shots, to land his own. Wlad wouldn't have adopted the same tactics I don't think. I think Wlad would have been seriously frustrated.

Of course guys like Haye and Wlad could have taken Roy out at any point. Ruiz wasn't a knockout artist, but he wasn't feather fisted. Haye has a speed advantage over everyone he faces. He wouldn't have had one against Roy. His clear advantage would have been his power, but Roy was far superior in every other department. I could definitely see Roy out thinking him to a points win.

Regards, Loudon.

 

No-ones stopped Old Man bernard at the LH division. Peronally I feel that Hagler would dominate at 175 currently with Dawson being the only challenge. Cloud,Cleverly, Shumenov, Campillo, Pascal, Kessler. Can you see any of them dealing with marvellous? In recent history, woods, barkley, calzaghe, johnson, Tarver, hopkins. Any of them you'd favour over Hagler? I don't think ward punches hard enough to keep Hagler off him. Perhaps DM or James Toney at their absolute best but I think you'd need a special fighter to defeat him sub 175.

 

Toney also embarrassed John Ruiz. Ruiz was not a skilful heavyweight like the Klits, or Lewis, and they were much bigger. Roy likely gets stopped by all three. Tyson was faded at that point, wouldn't have made any sense, still would be very dangerous for Roy. Tyson was still fast for a heavyweight, and I could see him trapping Roy on the ropes early and with his power it would take only one grazing punch to hurt Roy and it would be over. Holyfield at the time was outboxed by Byrd and Toney, so I suppose Roy could've done the same, but again made no sense with Holy coming off a string of losses and seen as done.

 

you are absoultely correct, Hagler would wreck the faces of Barkley, Calzaghe and co

I am referring to the best LHs, like Bob Foster, Tunney and Spinks. Forgive me if this thread is meant for recent top LHs, I must have misread it and have misled you unintentionally.

 

Agreed but you're having to take ATG's at a higher weight to hurt Hagler. Which in itself is an achievement and I'd be intrigued to see how Foster and Tunney would hold up in the modern era anyway just because the nature of the fight game has changed so much since then.

 

Great reply.

I think any fighter that becomes a four weight World Champion has to be mentally prepared.

Yes there's a few people missing from Roy's resume, but it wasn't a case of him simply not choosing to fight them. It's not a simple as that. Yes guys like Collins, he didn't want to fight, but guys like Benn and DM etc, they were other factors involved.

Roy went upto heavy with the intention of fighting Tyson. It would have been a complete freak show, but everyone in the World would have watched it, and he'd have made millions of pounds. It was never Roy's intention to just fight Ruiz and then come back down.

He had a verbal agreement to fight Holyfield just prior to Holy's final fight against Ruiz late 2001. But after Ruiz had beaten Holy, Roy turned down the chance to fight Evander, and remained at 175 for another year. He didn't think he'd get any credit beating Evander at that point, so he then turned his attention to Ruiz. He asked his advisor Murad Muhammad to get him a Title shot, and the fight was made late in 2002. Ruiz was not handpicked like everyone says he was. If Evander had've beaten Ruiz in 2001, Roy would have moved upto Heavy sooner than he did.

We know that Ruiz wasn't a great fighter, but it was still a dangerous fight for Roy to take. He outweighed Roy by over two stones on the night, and Roy had no idea how the extra weight would affect him. After Ruiz, he wanted Tyson and Lewis. General Zod put some links on here a few months ago, you may have seen them? After Ruiz, and before Lennox fought Vitali, there was talk of a fight between Roy and Lennox. Lennox was more than interested in the fight, and he said that Roy was great, but he wasn't big enough. Lennox thought it would have been an easy nights work for a huge amount of money.

A few months before Lennox fought Vitali, Murad and Shelly Finkle were trying to make the Tyson fight. Apparently Don King and a contractual dispute with Showtime, stopped the fight from taking place. A few months after Lennox's fight with Vitali towards the end of 2003, Roy approached Lennox and asked him if he was still interested in a fight. Lennox told Roy, that he definitely wasn't going to fight again, and he was going to retire.

Lennox knew after the Vitali fight, that he'd got nothing left and it was time to hang them up. He never thought that the fight with Vitali would have been as hard as what it was. He turned down a rematch for millions of pounds. But early in 2003, he was more than willing to fight Roy. If he'd have beaten Vitali quite comfortably, I think he'd have definitely fought Roy late 2003 or early 2004.

But Roy approached him late on in the year, because of the noises that Lennox had made at the begginning of the year. It doesn't matter what you think the outcome of the fight would have been, the fact is, Roy would have taken the fight and he did genuinly approach him. When he couldn't get a mega money fight with Tyson or Lewis, he wasn't interested in fighting any other heavy, so he came back down for Tarver.

Regards, Loudon.

 

I wasn't aware of that but still find it difficult to comprehend Roy wanting to fight Lewis regardless of the money and would have been amazed if it had happened as surely everyone in his camp would have advised against it from a boxing perspective and if he did so would have been purely for financial reasons.

Mentally prepared for the fights he had sure. He was always confident he was going to win and so was everybody else (Toney aside).

Agree there was some politics in some of the fights that never happened and ruiz was a convienient if not staged 'paper' champion. I hate to use the word 'paper' but you know what I mean, it wasn't as bad a situation as the current povetkin debacle but it isn't far off but there are still huge doubts held by most people as how he would have held up against the wealth of talent he could have faced regardless of the reasons. Unfortunately these are the fights he may have had difficulties or been tested in and so his mentality towards fighters that he should have fought will always be a question.

Thanks for the HW info!

 

I think Roy fancied his chances against Lewis, especially after the Vitali fight. Lennox was out of shape and passed his best, and Roy would definitely have troubled him with his speed. Apparently Murad made him $17 million for the Ruiz fight, so a fight with Lennox would have made him millions and millions of dollars.

Ruiz wasn't a great fighter. But he wasn't handpicked and he wasn't feather fisted or as bad as people make him out to be. Evander was obviously passed his best in 2001, but he wasn't completely shot at that point. Ruiz dropped him and beat him, so he wasn't complete garbage. It was still a dangerous fight for Roy to take. A lot of respected fighters, jouralists and trainers picked Ruiz to win that fight. It split opinion because of Ruiz's weight and strength advantages.

It's a real shame that Roy missed the likes of Benn, DM and Gerald etc, but I honestly believe that he'd have beaten all of them. I also believe that Toney and Hopkins were better fighters than most, if not all, of the fighters that he did miss.

Thanks for your reply, great debate.

Regards, Loudon.

 

Even if he thought he'd seen an ageing Lewis there for the taking I'm still of the opinion he'd lost handily going on Roys rapid decline after 2003 the performance against tarver onwards but maybe he thought he could beat lewis at that point not realising time had caught up with him too.

Good post :good

Sadly i agree that he would have probably beaten those esteemed fighters which is why I'm a little hard on him for not having those match-ups (the griffin victory definitely deserves way more credit though) and trying to get a fast track to a legacy by beating a mediocre HW belt holder. No I don't think ruiz is complete garbage but he is a contender in my honest opinion, no more no less and just happened to hold a title or 2 along the way. It's pretty much how I feel about povetkin now. I can think of sevral contenders who never won a title off that top of my head that were much better than a prime 'quiet man'.

Toney and Hopkins are another 2 who let me down resume wise at 160-75 and should also have fought better competition in their primes but hey what can you do?