Roy Jones Jr and weight classes

The # 1 genius ! But I know thats green in your eyes atsch Nice try keep reaching !

 

Still a contender, not a champion. Compare Hopkins standing there, to 8 years later when he was undisputed and P4P ranked

If Roy Jones stepped up to the middleweight division, and Hopkins was in his prime as the undisputed champion, Roy wouldn't have gone anywhere near him!

 

Knockout,

Great reply! I have to say, I love our debates!

I agree with everything you say about Hopkins. But can't we now look back and class that as a great win for Roy? It wasn't at the time, but can we say it was at this point?

Hill was coming off a loss, but like I said, in 1998 it was a relavant fight. He was still operating at World Level and many people wanted to see the fight. I like Glen Johnson, but I find it hard to give him a lot of credit for his win over Roy, because he could never have beaten Roy at his best. He wasn't good enough. Roy could have beaten any version of Hill. But Roy had been knocked out after 50 fights at 35, just three months before he fought Glen, so the circumstances are completely different.

I don't really like using the triangle theory and I know that styles make fights. But as I keep saying, you can't fight everybody. If he'd have toyed with Collins but not fought Reggie, you'd be asking me now why he didn't fight Collins. I don't think Collins missing from his resume is such a big deal. I believe that he'd have fought Benn if King hadn't wanted to tie him into a three fight deal. Benn and Collins were better than the bums he fought, but they weren't better than Toney and Hopkins. Collins wasn't better than Reggie, Griffin and Tarver in my opinion.

I agree what you're saying about fighting the no.1 guys. But we've discussed DM a thousand times. Roy said he wanted the fight, but he wasn't prepared to go to Germany, because some of Ottke's wins were disgusting, and Roy had been scarred by what happened to him in Seoul. DM agreed to go to the States twice and then he backed out twice. You make it sound as though Roy had a list of all the Heavies, and then he picked Ruiz from the list, because he was the weakest. But it didn't happen like that. Roy's intentions were Evander, and then his dream freak show fight with Tyson.

The verbal agreement Roy had with Evander late 2001 is true. I'll try and find some links or youtube footage, I haven't seen it for ages. After Evander's final fight with Ruiz, Evander's offer to Roy was still on the table. Roy turned it down. He turned it down because, if he'd have beaten Holy at that point, people would have said, big deal, Ruiz has just beaten him. He didn't think he'd get any credit, and he was right he wouldn't have done. So he turned down Evander and fought the guy who'd beaten him. So how can that be handpicking? If Evander had have won, Roy would probably have never fought Ruiz.

We've been through the whole Lennox thing before a thousand times. Lennox was making noises about a fight before Vitali. After Vitali, Lewis went quiet. Roy approached him and asked if he was still interested, and Lennox said no, i'm not going to fight anymore. He could have rematched Vitali or fought Roy for Millions, but he was sensible. He knew it was time to let go. I'm not for one second saying Lewis avoided a fight with Roy, but if you read those old links, Lennox was up for it early 2003 and he thought it would be an easy nights work. After Vitali, he'd had enough. I sit back and wonder what would have happened if Roy had have fought Evander in 2002 instead of fighting Ruiz in 2003. He could potentially have fought the winner of Tyson vs Lewis instead of Kelly and Woods.

So, I think you're been harsh. You make it sound as though he went up just for Ruiz, and then ran straight back down after. But the truth is, he could have fought Evander, Murad Muhamad tried desperately to get the Tyson fight, and then Lewis retired. Ruiz would only have been handpicked, if he'd have had no intention whatsoever, of fighting anyone else in the division, but, that was not the case.

Everyone wanted him to fight Dm, but I don't think anyone at the time had a problem with him saying he didn't want to go to Germany. Nobody went to Germany for big fights ten years ago. I know Roy forced Tarver into an eliminator, but Tarver lost to Harding. If Tarver had have won, they would have fought earlier. Harding won and then Roy fought Harding.

Me and you have no idea how difficult it is for a fighter to burn muscle away. He was 35 years old, and he'd never had to go into camp before to lose muscle. Maybe it was 6 pounds maybe it was more? But burning muscle at 35 after 50 fights when you've never had to do it before, is going to be hard work. It's not like just going on a diet. Coach Merk said he kept the Ruiz weight on because he was still hoping that Murad would be able to get him the Tyson fight. After it was officially dead in the water, that's when he started to lose the weight. According to coach Merk, it was rushed. Apparently he spent hours just running.

You're right about him not being motivated for Tarver. He didn't want to fight him, he wanted Tyson. He also didn't want to take the weight off and then put it back on again at a later date if a fight did materialize. But the reason he struggled with Tarver the first time, is because he was tired going into the fight. He was low on energy from the weight loss. However many pounds it was, he went from a ripped 190-200 (no bodyfat) to a ripped 175. After round 9 he was running on fumes. In the rematch his body had adjusted, but he had even less motivation for that fight, than he did for the first fight. But it was a great shot by Tarver to knock him out.

Great debate.

Regards, Loudon.

 

Dumbass he didn't lose another fight after Jones for 10 yrs ! And Jones was the reason he became champ. Who's belt do you think Hopkins picked up after Jones moved up to super middle ? Man you really need to do some more homework ! And Roy afraid of Hopkins I think we all know who the truth to that ! Hopkins wanted nothing to do with Jones until he was long past his best why else do you think he took the rematch after he lost several times ..You really need to stop with your nonsense !

If Jones had stayed at middle Hopkins would have never been the man at that weight class ! That much is fact !

 

It's hard to believe this thread is taken seriously.

If Roy Jones, or anyone else who is a natural SMW, would have entered the ring with either Klitschko brother they would spend the whole fight running for their lifes.

The only thing that might give Roy the chance to leave the ring without lifelong brain injuries is if Wlad felt so sorry for him that he allowed it. If Wlad wanted to knock Roy out, he would have nothong to fear and simply unload.

Vitali, who is specialised in sadistic beatdowns against small opponents would not let Roy off the hook.

Haye is also a natural HW. His reflexes and speed are topnotch. He would walk Roy down and knock him out.

 

You're a ****ing idiot, I already knew this, and now you've just re-affirmed it :nut Go and re-read the posts that I made earlier, you clearly aren't following the point I've made atsch

 

Sure you did !

You always say Hopkins was green when he fought Jones blah blah blah !


Your clearly aren't following the truth ! Thats what you keep missing ! Hopkins had 1 more pro fight than Jones .. Jones was as green as him this was both men's first shot at a title ..

Hopkins only became the man at middle because Jones left ! Hopkins when he was at the height of his career was offered to fight Jones and he not Jones wanted no part of that fight !


You should know how Hopkins is considering how he ducked a fight with Joe when an offer was made to him yet you think Jones was afraid of the man he already beat ! Yeah im the idiot

 

It is, take nothing away I'm not arguing with that. The point I'm making is that it wasn't like Roy Jones stepped up and challenged the number 1 in the division, he beat a contender for a vacant title. What Bernard went on to achieve makes it an excellent win, but if Hopkins disappeared after losing to Jones, we wouldn't be talking about it as a good win at all. Do you see what I mean?

To say Roy beats Virgil Hill at any time in Hill's career is an opinion. The fact is, Hill beat Roy when he was coming off a gruelling loss to DM. Hill also past his prime.

Now, to say Glen could never beat Roy at his best is also an opinion, what we do know is that when they fought, Johnson won by a 9th round KO. Roy was also still operating at world level, he only lost the undisputed title in his previous fight 5 months earlier, and a year later he fought Tarver again for the world title. 3 years later, he fought Calzaghe for the lineal LHW title, so Jones was still operating at world level for 4 years after facing Johnson.

It's always triangle theory, could've would've and should've when discussing Roy Jones. Roy had no troubles negotiating with Don King other times. Now, you dismiss Collins as an opponent, but answer me this, is he not better than Rick Frazier, Vinny Pazienza and Otis Grant??

So once again, Roy was going up to HW to cherry pick shot fighters and paper champions. Ruiz was handpicked, because he had a paper title. Holyfield and Tyson would have been hand picks, because they were shot fighters who had big names. If he was going up to HW to be the best, he would face Lennox Lewis (not castigating him for not fighting Lennox Lewis, but you have to agree that facing one of Ruiz, Tyson or Holy in 2003 is handpicking)

Where are the credible links? I've seen nothing in Roy Jones' career that suggest he would dare step into a ring with Lennox Lewis. The notion of it is ridiculous, if he did, we'd be talking about the late Roy Jones.

How do you know DM backed out of travelling to America?

Also, pushing him into an eliminator was an attempt to stay away for as long as possible. There was no need for that eliminator, when else have you seen something like that?

Well of course his coach is going to make it sound like Roy moved heaven and earth to drop 6 pounds. I haven't done it myself, fighters like Archie Moore and Thomas Hearns have done it, and be strong afterwards. Roy looked fine in the rematch against Tarver until he got caught.

Loudon, we've been over this multiple times. He went from 193-199 - 185. He weighed 185 to fight Tarver. Allow me to dispel this once and for all, take a look:

[url]http://youtu.be/k-JlAJ7_a54?t=15m6s[/url]


Now watch from 15:06, Jones weighed 185 to fight Tarver, not 175.

If you watch that video from the beginning, you see the Roy Jones interview, where he says he feels 7/10, because he couldn't motivate himself for Tarver. Doesn't mention the weight, doesn't mention being drained. The weight loss excuse is just that, an excuse. The excuses only came out after Roy got found out.

Great debating with you too

 

mmm but what makes the man is there whilst he is in his prime years or near that.

Hopkins was a great win for Roy, whether anyone likes it or not. Essentially beat the guy who had the ability to rule as an ATG MW for a decade.

if someone comprehensively beat Ali when he was 21, he'd be seen as a legend beater who was extraordinary too. Theres no way you'd claim that ALi wasnt yet a legend so it was a **** victory, unless you had **** for brains.

 

i missed nothing.

Hopkins wasnt replaced by an robot version of Hopkins after the Jones fight, he was the same guy who dominated MW for a decade.

Jones was a legend destroyer, you ought to accept that he was simply born with Ali like one in a million reflexes at some point, because its true. Yeah chin not great, but ultra reflexes that only a few on the planet possess at any one time.

 

I disagree, Prime Iron Mike Tyson of 1987-1988 version would've anally raped and murdered Roy :bbb

 

Knockout,

great reply!

Yes I see what you're saying regarding Hopkins. Fair enough.

Yes it's only my opinion that Roy would have beaten any version of Hill, and Glen Johnson earlier. But do you not agree with my opinions?

Roy has used Don King two or three times yes. But, he never considered tying in with him for multiple fight deals. Of course Collins was better than Paz, Frazier and Grant. But when Collins challenged Roy in the mid to late 90's, Roy was fighting at 175 looking to Unify the Division. Frazier was a mandotary at 175, and Grant may have been. Why would Roy have been desperate to fight Collins? He ended up Unifying the 175 division by beating Reggie, who'd beaten Collins. Collins was a hard man. He was a Warrior. But he wasn't great, and I don't think it's a loss that Roy didn't fight him. He fought and beat better fighters than Collins.

If you want to call Evander and Tyson cherry picks, that's fair enough. I see your point. But your posts always read to me, as though he deliberately picked Ruiz, and he didn't have any intentions of fighting anyone else. But he did approach Lewis. I don't know if it's from Zod's links, or somewhere on youtube. I think it may be on youtube. If you don't think Roy was serious, then fair enough, but he did approach him and Lennox said that he wasn't fighting again. But if you read Zod's links, they read to me like Lennox was more than up for a fight early 2003 before he struggled with Vitali.

How do I know DM backed out of going to America? Simply because he never went, and the fight never happened. Roy refused point blank to go to Germany, but I don't remember anyone criticizing him at the time. In Roy's post fight Frazier interview, Larry Merchant says that DM is now willing to come over. But shortly afterwards he changed his mind. Then later on, he had more negotiations, but once again he couldn't agree to terms. If he'd have gone over, the fight would have been made.

I agree with you regarding the eliminator. I don't think he wanted to fight Tarver. But I also think that he got some delight over messing him around, and that's why he also did it. But the fact remains, if Tarver had have beaten Harding in the eliminator, Roy would have had to have fought him. But he lost, so Roy fought Harding instead.

Yes Archie Moore and Hearns didn't seem to be troubled by weight issues, but that doesn't mean Roy was lying. I've seen that video a hundred times. Ten mins in they discuss Roy losing around 18 pounds. His weigh in weight was 175. He had to get from nearly 200 pounds to 175, something that he'd never experienced before. I'm not going to get into the weight debate again, but look at the difference in his physique between Ruiz and Tarver. It may only have been 7 pounds of muscle, but a pound can be a lot to a pro boxer. Also, go to the end of the video and watch the post fight interview. He says losing the weight was the hardest thing he'd ever done in his career, and he never realised it would be as hard as what it was. He says "That was a hard 25 pounds to sweat!" Obviously it wasn't all muscle, but he wasn't losing magic beans. You could see during the fight that he was tired. He'd never faded like that towards the end of any of his previous fights.

Regards, Loudon.

 

Prime roy that fought ruiz.

Id say he would give some trouble.

actually alot for like the first 7-8 rounds. but i think he gets dropped in 9 or 10 if he was fighting adamek.

but He would prolly beat haye due to his tendency to gas out.