Roy Jones Jr. versus Marvin Hagler

We were talking about the possibility of Jones 'comfortably' beating Hagler. Dude, YOU missed the point.

 

I was merely offering avenue for Roy's chances not being as slim as some may think and I pretty much got what I was looking for in your answer. Indeed, our discussions rank amongst my most enjoyed on ESB ... always, a pleasure, comrade.

Often the cheetah will just about escape the chasing lion, but in an enclosed space ... the cheetahs chance of survival drop about as much as Ms. Lewinsky's knees in the Oval Office.

I think we probably agree on how the fight may unfold - Roy soundly outboxing Hagler, before Hagler starts to turn up the heat and get to him more and more.

The one thing that Ray did in their fight that Roy would certainly employ is the flash ... Roy would look to shoeshine and the way Hagler moved his head would make many think he was taking shots when he was in fact slipping and negating impact. This is why I referred to a difference in my scorecard and that of the judges.

I think Hagler would start off trying to box off the jab, moving around the jab and setting a good tempo ... here, he would be, in effect, "standing off Roy". I don't think he'd overly change until he realises that Roy is faster than he thought and was throwing off Marv's own excellent headmovement and distance negotiation. Prime Hagler would be quick to go for the inside battle IF he felt that his title was at threat.

Ray was also smaller, less powerful than Roy and not as quick, but that's a moot point cos Hagler in '87 is completely different from '80 - '83 Hagler. Roy wasn't a strategist in the mould of a Ray Leonard, but I can still see him fighting similarly ... using his feet to offset Hagler's movement, using his handspeed to confuse Hagler and attempt to keep him from getting set, throwing combos to close out rounds and win the judges. How effective he is in doing these things enough to win depends on the ability of Hagler to adapt and the mentality he brings into the fight.

Roy allegedly fought Hopkins with one bad hand and beat him convincingly, given the circumstances, IMO. Devil's Advocate argues that even at that stage, Hop had a GREAT skillset, but I'd argue whether he had the experience needed to face that version of Roy. Prime Hagler had the experience, the question is whether he had the adaptability, speed and timing to enforce his will on Roy. Some would argue that at the weight, nobody did ... I'd note that at the weight, Roy never fought anyone as potent in as many departments as a prime Hagler.

Hagler is underrated full stop. He feinted with his shoulder rolls, his head, his hands, he had that bounce, you didn't know whether he was throwing the jab or changing stance because very rarely did he telegraph the punch. One of the things that Duran is rated highly for, Hagler isn't: defence whilst on the offensive. Hagler is shown to slip, duck and weave under retaliatory punches whilst in combination, staying balanced and being able to finish off the combination upon completion of the defensive manouevre.

I don't think that Hagler's technical boxing will be of major significance until at least round 3 or 4 ... I think it will take a round or two to adapt to get used to the speed differential and another two or three rounds for Marv to start renegotiating distance, using his excellent footwork, constant jab and timing to find where and when to pick his spots to ply his trade and he can only do this successfully if he:

Exactly ... Marv HAS to realise that he has to war with Roy, if he wants to beat him. He has to break him down and test his resolve or speed will kill. I think Hagler came out so vicously with Hearns because he:
a) Knew his own limitations;
b) Knew he had a good chance of testing Hearns' vulnerability;
c) Trusted in his own strength and chin
d) Was desperate due to the bleeding and the thought of losing the title that he worked SO damn hard to get; and
e) Hearns trying to slug with him enraged him and woke the beast

Thanks for the answers ... I think Roy has to keep Hagler passive, because his best chance is against a passive Marv that doesn't get to make it an inside battle ... an enraged Marv, fully confident in his chin, won't walk Roy down to the point to spark him cold, but is certainly capable of doing enough to beat him by emplying technique in making it a warrior's fight - if this is the case, then turning away, eyes closed, from punches is to be seen as a negative trait to possess.

I think Monzon, SRR and RJJ will all give Marv very difficult questions to answer. I cannot say Greb, from my own footage based judgment, of course, but on the sheer depth of his record makes him perhaps the toughest of all the obstacles to face?

 

No !

 

That raises the question:

What does it matter what your chin is like if no one can land on it ?


I'm only being a little bit facetious here. Think about it.


(A little bit like: You can't really tell how great a fighter is until you see how he handles defeat. What if he goes undefeated ?)

 

Well in Chris''s post he mentioned B-hops power. That was my mistake I mixed up things. Was a bit of projection.

 

I highly doubt that B-hop could ever beat a prime Roy Jones - Jones style is all wrong for him. As for hagler he couldn't figure out a few fighters who are much more orthodox than Roy is. I don't buy it, but Hagler could probably find a way much better than B-Hop would.

 

Hagler's southpaw stance would trouble Jones Jr. And I mean TROUBLE him bad.
I can see Jones winning a close fight on points (in 12 rounds) and I can see Hagler winning too.

I watched Hagler - Leonard again lately and even if Leonard was pretty much far away from his best days, he was still one hell of an outboxer and prove it many times during the fight.
Truth is, Jones Jr is not as skillful as Ray was. I mean boxing skill's wise. Of course Roy was a great athlete and could do thing that many couldn't. But in front of a prime Marvelous (I suggest some of you guys rewatch Hagler during his titles defenses) it is 50/50.

I would give the edge to Marvin though. Power, speed, skills, southpaw, titan chin, great jab... Jones would have a bad bad time fighting Marvin. That's for sure.

 

At 160 I'd take Hagler to win over 12 or 15. For me RJJ wasn't at his peak till he went to 168.

 

It's better that if nobody can land on it that it's solid in reserve, rather than weak. Someone is going to land on it sooner or later. I know what you're saying though.

 

Jones is flashy, no doubt. However, I'd be very hesitant to see Roy pulling off what Ray did. Not only is Roy no strategist, he also nothing like the romantic image that Ray had in that comeback. Roy came off as an arrogant a-hole and aside from the young and the hip-hoppers among us, he was no charismatic fighter in the vein of Leonard or Ali. That helped sway the judges. Hagler had difficulty landing on Leonard not only because he was slow and relatively passive in that bout, but also because Leonard had an orthodox defense underneath that tendency to clown. Jones would get caught more often in the corners than Ray did even against 1987 Hagler. Agree? Disagree?

Yes, however, Roy winged it. Ray's flash and pizzaz had a purpose and it was rooted in a grand strategy (think Dundee exhorting at ringside every round to sway the judges).

Ray had a guy signaling to him when 30 seconds was left at the end of the round. He got critical advantages before the fight including a larger ring and 12 rounds. Dundee knew that you don't fight Hagler like any other southpaw because he's converted -instead of moving to the right, he had Ray moving left. He also had Ray getting to center ring first every round as a psyche ploy because Hagler traditionally trotted there first.

---would Roy approach such tactics and strategies? No. Would a 24 year old Roy need tactics and strategy? I think he would even against a 32 year old Hagler, never mind a 28 year old Hagler.

The Hopkins fight is his most impressive. Hopkins was good by his 6th fight and was a technican full-blown by the time he faced Jones. But his strategy was all wrong and of course that had plenty to do with Jones. Jones is hard to fight, but harder to box. Jam him up, that shakes him up. Hagler had more than enough tools to do this.

The Hearns fight is more interesting than most know if you look at differently. Hagler's view of Duran was a fair one when you consider that Duran destroyed Cuevas, and brutalized Moore in his two fights previous. Marvin was wary because Duran was rejuvenated and known to bang up bigger guys (Leonard, Cuevas, Moore, and yes, even Hagler and Barkley all got banged up in their respective bouts with Duran -who emerged unscathed in all of them).

But Hearns, well, Hearns did the unthinkable to Duran. So here's Hagler. He's only a couple of inches taller than Duran. Hearns has height, reach, speed, power, and for all intents and purposes, even boxing ability over Hagler. To get inside Hearns was among the most dangerous things you could do in the ring. Hagler was outgunned and a case could be made that he was overmatched. He had no choice but to put his chin on the line and wade into the danger zone and bang him. That's high risk. Hagler did it and did it well. Had Hearns decided to box and bang later...? I could see the 26 year old Hearns handling 1985 Hagler. I really could.

Freddie Brown said that Duran could beat Marv in '83 because he's stronger (!), sharper, better defensively, and better overall inside than Vito Antuofermo. Greb was hell -strong, durable, ultra-fast, and a swarmer who attacked from angles like swarms of locusts. He handled guys stronger than Hagler for fun.

The MW Jones, I think we'd agree, would give Hagler problems if Hagler waltzed and fought a stupid fight. Otherwise, Jones' inexperience, cautious mentality, and technical deficiencies will see him having far more problems than he causes.

 

By the way, Stonehands, did you read the interview with Dundee? There he claimed he had a kid go ask Hagler for an autograph, and by signing it Hagler exposed himself as a natural right hander. Lovely stuff.

I would also like to hear your take on Leonard. A guy with such athletic ability coupled with very solid fundamentals is rare to say the least. Is he a fighter you like to watch, seeing how you prefer the sound boxers?

 

Dundee is/more of a psychologist than a strategist. He's the guy you go to if you need a consigliere. The guy has wisdom all over the place.

I see Ray Leonard as close to a complete fighter. There are 3 categories that I look at right out of the gate when analyzing a fighter, particularly in H2H hypotheticals:

1. Technique (how strong is their foundation?)

2. Athleticism (this includes power, speed, and strength)​

3. Courage (how do they respond to distress? Do they accept all challenges?)

Leonard had all three. He was a great fighter -top 15-20 all time, top 5 all time WW. His execution was exceptional, he was a brilliant tactician and a brilliant strategist. However, you've heard it said that our strengths are our weaknesses? I do place asterisks on some of his great wins. I don't like the way he lured Duran back into the ring when he knew that Duran would be weakened. I don't like the way he fought Duran in New Orleans. It wasn't very impressive to any purist that I know. I don't like the way he insisted on 12 rounds and a 20 foot ring against Hagler, I don't like the way he teased Hagler for years and waited until Hagler had slowed down before fighting him. These things take a bit of the glamour off of these wins. I credit Duran in his loss agianst Hagler more than Leonard's win.

I am a fan. With eyes wide open.

For me Leonard proved his talent and skill against Benitez. He proved his both again and also his heart against Duran I. He removed any lingering doubt about his greatness against Hearns I.

 

I'm seeing it your way here.

Hagler's management would have pushed hard for 15 rounds, as they did constantly as 12 round endings were being introduced.

At 12 perhaps Jones....at 15 perhaps Hagler....and for mine, anything but a boring fight!

 

I see this going two ways, Jones in 12, or Hagler in 15 or a 14 rd. stoppage. I think Jones speed would give MMH fits! I see Hagler coming on in a duration bout, working downstairs. And possibly getting to RJJ late. This is a tough fight to call...

 

Did you like the way he fought for two titles, from two seperate weight divisions, in one night? Thats what annoys me even more than the points you made. It padded his resume even more. Very sneaky and outright cheating in my book. Two seperate fights needed for that I'm afraid.