roy jones jr vs archie moore....

So his chances for countering are as low as "nil" and he "isn't going to land other than countering"?

Think about it now - is it possible you're overating Jones a tiny bit?

Please spare me the boxing 101.

He really, really isn't "leagues ahead". I'm afraid, as is often the case when you're discussing Jones, you've basically forgotten that Jones is in the ring with another fighter - and one who is capable of competing with him. Jones as "leagues ahead" in "footwork and use of angles"? That's a really quite ridiculous claim. They are different, and a case can certainly be made that Jones is superior in this department, but they are not even a class apart, never mind "leagues".

I pick Moore to KO Jones. I think it's less than laughable, I think it's certainly more realistic than Moore failing to actually hit Jones in 12-15 rounds which is a claim you seem to have made.

If I've made it sound like that allow me to retract it here. What I do say is that Jones will potshot at 175 gains Moore.

You mean by Senya? Did you read MarcianoFrazier's answering post?

Are you saying that Jones is as good as Charles at LHW?

I think that KO ing Marshall is a great achievment at LHW and certinaly more impressive than any 175lb scalp Jones has.

Jones has a suspect chin, which aids, somewhat, in making a case for his scoring a KO. Wouldn't you say?

 

I think so. But he doesn't have Burley's punch resistance, and may not be as gifted in terms of strength, pound for pound.

 

You know you've just described Moore?

Moore is far better than anyone Jones fought "in his prime". He is also fighting at his very best weight one division north of Jones's best weight. More than that - what you're talking about, "dropping the shoulder" is basic as basic can be where Archie is concerned. This is the type of thing Toney did, Moore takes it a step further. After his gall bladder operation, Moore would present the scar tissue for a punch and counter it before his opponent had thrown the body shot. A pre-counter on a feint. That's not comparable to anything Jones has faced.

Now, Moore has fought better fighters than Jones, overall if not p4p, but he did lose to many of these, and I don't say that it is impossible that JOnes would lose this one.

But I do say that you grossly underestimate Moore, and grotesquely overate Jones.

 

Toney is certiainly more athletic than Moore, but I would say that Moore was technically better than him, although i'm splitting hairs as the difference is not vast. Here is a list of things that makes Moore a greater threat to Jones than either of these men:

1 - Moore is a natural LHW, which Hopkins is not.

2 - Moore is a harder puncher than either of these men

3 - Moore has more top flight experience than either of these men

4 - Moore has more one punch power than either of these men

5 - Moore is a more aggressive puncher than either of these men

6 - Moore is a better finisher than either of these men

7 - Moore is a better feinter than either of these men

8 - Moore would be primed and not weight-drained, unlike both of these men when they took on Jones.

He is faster. But speed is not the only. Moore shapes himself beautifully to pre-cut the ring, for example. Moore plnts himself to punch with either hand and very suddenly - did you know that Moore threw a leaping hook not dis-similair to Jones.

I have no bias towrds the 50's, and the Jones hype train for the up and coming Calzaghe train belongs to me. I pick Jones to beat Charles, I rate him inside my composite all time top 25, pound for pound.

Nonsense. Toney was far, far more reticent - there is nothing of this, "do the minimum" attitude that Toney had through to 175. Moore was in for the ko most of the time. He was also more subtle, often fought from a crouch, would happily commit 100% to the attack, hit harder, threw wider punches when up close and shorter punches at mid-range...the similarities are a myth, there are more differnces than similarities.

If that is true, then Moore will lose, but that is where we differ. I don't think he would struggle to land anything like as much as you think, although I would expect Jones to be ahead at the time of a stoppage, if there was one.

Most fighers KO % falls off against the very best they face. The fact that he has KO wins over Williams, Marshall, Johnson, Jimmy ****ing Bivins, Cocoa Kid tells it's own story.

A case could certainly be made for rating Marshall above Jones, though I don't. Moore KO'd a heavyweight (Cruiserweight) Bivins whilst weighing under the 175 limit himself - i assume you accept that a 185lb Bivins is a tougher opponent than a 175lb JOnes? Or maybe not...

Was it? I'll take your word. Yes, I think that Marshall, as it goes, would be better than a weight drained Toney. Overall, he certainly beat the better competition.

Ruiz can hit him flush, but Moore can't?

 

You pick Hopkins to beat Marciano? You pick Toney to beat Patterson (Something tells me I'm going to wish I hadn't asked you that second question!)?

You consistantly overate Jones. You know I like talking boxing with you, but I've always found talking Jones with you tiring.

 

Bulrey is a welterweight/light-middleweight, Smith is light-heavyweight. So if Smith is stronger that is not surprising, but I thought Burley did just fine in those clinches - I don't think he was overpowered.

At Welter he was known for strength and muscled Zivic, who was similairly noted for strength.

Burley may not have taken hits against Moore, but he was certainly hit, most notably by Bivins, Marshall, Charles, Zivic, Cocoa Kid. He was dropped but never stopped, and some of these men were bigger than him.

As for Jones having a better chin than Burley, I'd suggest you need to build a bridge with that.

Senya, strength is not dependant upon weight-lifting. But you knew that.