Roy Jones Jr vs Bernard Hopkins

Moot point. Both weighed in at the Middleweight limit prior to the fight, and as such the fight was fair. In today's day and age, anyway.

A severely weight drained Roy probably would've lost just due to the toll it would've taken on his body, but if we were doing same day weigh ins he'd likely never have been a Middleweight in the first place.

He didn't look bigger than Hopkins, and it's not as if his style revolved around muscling his opponents or using that edge in weight to his advantage. He beat Hopkins with speed and ring savvy. Prime for prime that would've always been the case, if you ask me.

 

Jones had 1 good hand that night so all is fair.

 

Hopkins relies on timing and spoiling. Neither of which can realistically be applied against a man so quick.

Jones is a huge favourite were they to venture in a time machine and duke it out.

 

That's it, really.

 

Well Jones beat Hopkins easy with 1 hand and Hopkins ran from the rematch for years, it's a pretty easy one for me, RJJ was about 3 classes above Hopins

Hopkins weighed 160 on fight night, what source is there for this, he weighed 170+ for his first fights? Goto call BS on this without a source

 

Hopkins was two classes below Jones, Jr, one class below Calzaghe.

 

Below Calzaghe? **** no way. I was at the Thomas & Mack (have a second home here in Vegas (Summerlin) since 1998)) and while BHOP was old and seemed less than fit on the night one thing was fundamentally unambiguous: Calz was and is the comparatively inferior athlete and boxer. Age absolutely matters. Joe barely edged a lousy fight against a really old fighter. In this shitty era BHOP has sustained a way over long career DUE to the lousy comp. However, a late 90s BHOP would have wrecked Joe. BHOP from the 90s had equivalent stamina, superior technique, undeniable aggression, and was superior both offensively and defensively to ANY version of Calzaghe.

Joe's vaunted handspeed is actually no different than BHOP's [Bernard isn't close to RJJ, SRL, Meldrick Taylor, Hector Camacho, Howard Davis, Shane Mosley, etc., etc. but neither is Joe - nowhere even in the same zip or country code]. Joe's ring generalship at his very best is no better than BHOP's. Joe's stamina, fitness, power, and strength is no better than BHOP's. Joe's chin is not better than BHOP's. Joe's strengths against other fighters are thus non-factors against BHOP and don't provide him any advantage. But, BHOP is the better athlete (he's not RJJ but he's a FULL step above Calz who suffers from the usual white guy maladies comparatively) that will take less punishment than Joe because he moves his head and moves better laterally (while Joe is EASY to hit as he lacks agile movement and doesn't have exceptional defensive guile to say the least), throws straighter punches, and would be able to land first, react first, and exploit the opportunities.

Joe fought two old men in years and ring years. What was apparent in moments and their ring interaction was that even these far far past prime versions had the superior innate athletic talent. Comparing the best of each only allows for one interpretation. Joe was tagged by the same punch for half the fight against an exhausted last second weight cutting (replacement) Eubank, couldn't see the punch coming from a shot RJJ, and couldn't anticipate the albeit sparse punches thrown by a mid-40s BHOP. Joe is a slick white fighter. Unfortunately, that isn't the same as being RJJ or EVEN a prime BHOP. It works against another white European (or a white Midwestern American) but it simply is not extraordinary athleticism COMBINED with technique. Joe is a very good fighter and his skillset was enough to edge Kessler (in what was a struggle in six total rounds of that fight). It was enough to MAYBE edge six rounds against Robin Reid (who is far from expectionally talented).

As much as I understand the hero worship to rate Joe highly it isn't necessary to overlook his deficiencies when there is tape available for all to see. He was dismal against Starie. He struggled with Brewer and Bika. He got dropped by Salem. He got rocked to his boots by Mitchell. Jermain Taylor gave an ancient but less ancient BHOP a worse struggle than Joe managed - and over twenty four rounds. I doubt anyone aims to suggest that Jermain Taylor is an ATG or anything even close. The limited Pascal actually had ancient BHOP really hurt and in trouble in their fight. It didn't take a great ring general or ATG to trouble BHOP as he got into his late 30s and into the 40s.

Joe flailed and missed over and over again against a fighter than looked his age that night. In your mid-40s there are more off nights and that was definitely one. I think he underestimated Joe a bit. For whatever reason BHOP looked "soft" and one thing about boxing - there is no second chance if you don't feel right on the night. This isn't a team sport playing a series of games or matches either. But, the much younger man (comparatively) looked equally lousy. Joe's poor reactions, his slow reactions, his inability to anticipate, and poor technique were there at the end of his career just as they were really always there. It didn't matter in his career because he managed to pick his moments and opponents to maximize his chances of success in a horrible era. Joe is a fighter that would have been troubled by a huge number of guys historically from middle to LHW. He would have been troubled not because he didn't have heart, or ring generalship, or some good athletic attributes but because he also suffered from some obvious deficiencies that were rarely put to the test. Edging a couple old men (and barely in the case of BHOP) at career end doesn't garner the same accolades or allow for some substantive proof of his greater worth. To me, what I saw was a lesser athlete struggling to edge a fight in which only a greater number of wildly thrown flails and spastic two handed hammers added up to the narrowest win against an old guy who didn't have the energy on the night but when he struck exhibited his superior quality of movement, athletic timing, and craft. It was crystal clear to see at ringside. BHOP didn't have enough moments and if you had to pick a "winner" in this horrible event I can certainly see how at least half of the people could pick Calz. But, Joe's talent and athleticism appeared lacking. This was no ATG. This was a good fighter in a horrible era who managed to obtain a perfect record.

BHOP is the more talented fighter (though he fought his career in a terrible era as well). It is evidenced in that he is still going today while Joe who also took little ring punishment retired).


But H2H, in their prime, Joe gets beat up. Joe gets hit more often and gets his chin checked through out.

If Kessler could fight Joe even for half a fight (in one of Joe's absolute best ring performances (forget Lacy who was stiff and musclebound)) then a prime Hopkins wins the entire fight going away.



[Watching the tape of the dismal Tyrone Jackson - Joe Calzaghe fight from 1995 (it's on a DVD with a few other fights - no one would intentionally want to watch this fight). The terribly untalented Jackson repeatedly eats Joe's punches like they are nothing and finally puts his hands down and lets Joe throw punches at his head in the fourth round. They stop the fight. {lmao} There is a constantly repeated myth that Joe was some bomber before hand troubles changed him. The reality is that he never had much upper body strength, leverage, proper technique, or extraordinary natural punching ability. The 21 TKOs to start his career was a collection of premature and appropriate stoppages of an incredible gallery of stiffs, bums, fat guys, and never weres. Most of these guys (nay, all of these guys) wouldn't even have had boxing careers (as short as they may have been) in a proper era in which healthy able men were pursuing the sport. To be fair, Joe was a big SMW and with his size and structure heavy-handed. But, this was no "natural" and far from the highest level to ever compete historically. Without the promotion, the isolation, the weak era, and thrown into more challenging waters after winning the title in '97 instead of a cherry picked path of almost nothing until '06 his career could have looked much different - and his legacy as well.]