Roy Jones Jr vs Marvin Hagler @ 160lbs

I recall an event on the tube back in 1993. I was with my family (the girls were 5 and 9) from Uxbridge to Finchley Road on the Picadilly Line. When we stopped at Wembley station, about a dozen football hooligans got between me wife and I and the girls, who were sitting on the other side of the train. One group was blue, the other group was red. Anyway, they started screaming at each other, gesticulating like monkeys, and they scared the crap out of my kids. They moved their act to the next car and we got off safe and sound.

I'm sure beer/whiskey had a lot to do with their behavior (the soccer guys, not my girls...that came later).

 

What a horrible position to be in.

It must have been absolutely awful, especially for your girls.

At least nothing serious happened though.

 

Agreed. Hagler would not dare move up to light heavy, but there were talks for him if he wanted to.

 

TBF, I always thought Hagler wrecked Mugabi mentally in that fight. IMO Mugabi thought he was invulnerable and that nobody could stand up to his power punching. Once Hagler beat him, the illusion imploded. IMO, anyway.

 

I am not sure I would go as far as to say Hagler was being out-boxed. He was heading towards winning a wide UD. I do think the manner in which Hagler handled Mugabi is testament to a couple of realizations/confirmations, though.

Firstly, Mugabi's power was for real. Secondly, Hagler's youth had well and truly left the station.

Hagler had plenty of tough fights. I think people underestimate the quality of the contenders back then and the apprenticeship Hagler had to serve, in order to just get his shot, in his 50th bout. Not one of today's ring top-10 middleweights has completed 50 professional bouts, let alone 65 of them.

 

And lots of times, in the other guy's backyard. When do you see the house fighter in the last 3 decades taking their act on the road? They can go a whole career and not face hostile environments more than once or twice. Hagler was fighting Seales in Washington. All those tough Philly guys in their hometown. And sometimes winning decisions in the other guy's backyard which is the single toughest accomplishment to do.

And he did rematches. And he did better in those rematches. To end his career--and deterioration was painfully obvious--fighting Hearns/Mugabi/Leonard. Who else finished their title defenses in their career's facing that level of competition? And he won 2 of the 3 & lots of middles are suffering a defeat fighting that trio in successive bouts. The one he lost was close & lets face it; If Marvin was the media darling and not Sugar Ray, he gets the nod. 3-0.

A guy shows up with his B game---like all fighters with diminished reflexes do--and getting your arm raised is extremely impressive. First off, you have 2 big hitters. Old guys usually do not do well against the youthful young punchers. Hagler fought 2 consecutive---who else wore those shoes? And won? And then the last fight is against a media darling with fast hands and outstanding boxing ability. That's another match the old guys seldom win.

Marvin may have been the last champion the sport has had that did not cherrypick. If he had, we would have never seen the above matches and would have got things like a Curry moving up or a #1 ranked Shuler instead. But that kind of potential matchmaking using the path of least resistance is not used for Marvin, is it?

 

Hagler was being outboxed, especially early. Mugabi had a glass jaw. He was stopped very early several times. The internet chin police would troll him ad nausea if he was active today.

I think Hagler was in some tough fights too. Part of the reason is competition, the other part he was often a slow starter and didn't hit hard enough to either make them fear him or take them out early.

By contrast, the best punchers really don't have a lot of tough fights, do they?

To clarify are you saying Hagler who slowed down some at age 31 ( A rarity for an active boxer who kept his weight at the right level and lived a drug-free life ) relied more on speed than power?

 

He didn't need to move up to lightheavy he was always a natural middle never had a problem making weight it wasn't like he was 12 stone plus on fight night.
Back then middleweight was arguably the blue ribbond division, LHW wasn't a big deal.

 

Mugabi won about 3 of the completed 10 rounds boxed and was battered towards a stoppage in the 11th. In what way was Hagler being out-boxed?

You base Mugabi having a glass jaw on what - having taken the biggest beating of his career and then, four to five years later, taking solid shots from Norris and McClellan?

The above is an oversimplification, and I suspect it's also off the mark. You need to be more specific with your evidence for this. Unfortunately, I also suspect that you would happily use the Mugabi bout as evidence.

I trust that you can select a group of Hagler's fights, during his prime, as obvious examples of him starting slowing.

It's a theory; seemingly strengthened by examples of solid punchers, who have fought cans for most of their careers.

The two factors are not mutually exclusive. Moreover, you need to factor in other aspects, such as timing, coordination, reflexes etc...

The whole is far greater than the sum of its parts.

 

Mugabi was in the lead after five rounds. Hagler once again started slow and offered too much initial respect.

Based on in his very next fight after Hagler, he was stopped in just 3 rounds by Thomas. Not five years, we are 8 months here. Yes--Norris and McCLellan both took out Mugabi in 1 round. Mugabi early record is very padded. He had a glass jaw. The early KO losses show that.

I think Hagler was in some tough fights too. Part of the reason is competition, the other part he was often a slow starter and didn't hit hard enough to either make them fear him or take them out early. Examples of his slow starts would be Leonard. Examples of giving a fighter too much respect Duran. Also Mugabi. Plenty of evidence.

See the above reply.

His best fans agree he was at times a slow starter and too apprehensive. While I would agree with you that he looked excellent vs Minter, what did he really have to fear? Minter was Ko'd 6 times before he meet Hagler and near the end of his career.

It's a good theory, the top punchers often end fights quickly, or have many easy nights based on the other guy fearing his power. See Wlad, Foreman, GGG, Bob Foster at light heavy, ect....Hagler just wasn't that good of a puncher, and his slow-starting tendencies / offer his opponent too much respect is a reason why some of his fights were tougher than they had to be.

I don't judge a book by its cover. If I did Hagler looks very tough and imitating, but after reading through the pages, he didn't quite live up to these lofty expectaitons.

 

More like did not want to. Hagler had a chance to fight Spinks, didn't he?

Divisions become a big deal when the big names are there. Spinks qualifies.

 

Once again? When had he before? How often?

Mugabi wasn't ahead on my scorecard, after 5 rounds. To think that, you'd have to believe Mugabi had clearly won three of the first four rounds, because he certainly didn't win round 5.

Mugabi was injured by a thumb in the Thomas bout and got taken out by two of the biggest punchers in the Light Middleweight and Middleweight divisions, respectively, after that - some four to five years after the Hagler bout. This point of yours has no real substance.

From a 67-fight career, in which you select two examples of bouts when Marvin was way past his prime ('86; '87) and a contest most consider to be an anomaly; not part of some recurring pattern, I think your evidence is far from plentiful.

I've addressed your previous reply.
Who are Hagler's best fans?
Are you actually suggesting that Hagler feared some of his opponents?

As I suspected from the beginning, yet another 'slur' thread to diminish another past All Time Great.

And, you had to get a mention in of your favorite Tomato Can Conqueror, "GGG".

How tragically predictable you are.

 

By going to the body

 

To sum the whole thing up, you think Hagler was past his prime by 30 due to tough fights. Vs Whom? You never said.

You think Mugabi doesn't have a glass jaw despite 3 very early stoppages ( It took Hagler 11 rounds to finish Mugabi ) who was in the lead early in the fight.

You think Hagler wasn't sometimes late starter ( Leonard ) and didn't give opponents too much respect.( Duran )

You might as well tell me Hagler beat Leonard clearly! Okay, you can tell us, and show us your scorecard as Hagler fans try to sneak in one of the early four rounds for him

Okay, Man_Machine, I understand your positions, even though they are wrong as the facts, film and #'s prove.

I view Hagler as a top 5 ATG at middleweight, but at the same time, I can remain objective to how things played out. I can comment on his tendencies and flaws. The issue here is I'm debating a fanboy. I still think you're a decent poster though.

 

I agree. how was Hagler outboxed. He was winning most of the rounds and Mugabi staying in there because Hagler was rusty is the only reason this fight was competitive.