Roy Jones Jr Vs Marvin Hagler

A little more specificity would be helpful here, Sweet Pea.

 

Roy was stronger than Marvin at MW? I'll assume that was a typo.

Obviously, there is no other way to put it.

Perhaps because Jones was never in the ring with anyone on Hagler's level? Not just at MW, but at any point in his career.

No, because this is about a fight between the two as they were at these weights. Even if it was in the scenario you suggested, that still doesn't make up for this next statement you make.

Roy was probably stronger at SMW than at MW, so I personally believe he moved up not only to face the best, but because he was also more comfortable. And either way, no man who ever fought in this sport shuts out Marvin Hagler at MW, no one. Jones would outbox him, but when Hagler turned on the jets, he could not only win rounds, but hurt Roy as well. I would call for a win by Decision for Roy, but not like you said it.

And then there's the fact that not only is noone going to shut Hagler out, but barring cuts, noone in the history of boxing could stop Hagler.

 

No not a typo. Roy was just a naturally bigger guy. He said himself that he was stronger than most of his opponents at middlewt.

I used to compete in Judo in the 70's, at 143 lbs. I usually did ok. My walking around wt was 145-148, so I just fasted for a day, made weight, went for a steak breakfast and competed in the afternoon. For one tournament I misjudjed and didn't make weight and had to compete at 156lbs. What a nightmare. The strength difference of the lads in that division was decisive. I lost to guys with less skill and lower rank, simply because they outmuscled me. I never missed weight again. ( I now weigh 223, but it doesn't matter at my age).

Roy went on to fight at 168, 175 and heavywt. He was bigger and stronger than Marvin. The only way he would not have been was if he were weight-drained, and that wasn't the case.
(Remember, Marvin had a very competitive bout with Duran, who as a fully grown man, fought at 135 and had moved up to 160. Marvin did not outmuscle him).

Bigger AND stronger.

Well I explained the other possibility. I expect the first possibility was what was in mind.

He faced Hopkins, who was certainly on Marvin's level. And at super MW, he shut out James Toney.

If Roy had stayed at MW and continued to improve as he did, at prime, Marvin's boxing skills were not on the same level as Roy's. Not remotely. I could easily see him shutting Marvin out. Or scoring a very lop-sided decision. I was a fan of the Marvrlous one, and I feel he edged out Leonard, but Jones was a whole other kind of amimal.

If you think about your last sentence, you will realize that you might have typed it in a heated moment.

Marvin, like everyone else who's ever boxed, goes down and out, if he catches the perfect flush shot, perfectly delivered.

 

He didn't look stronger than Hopkins in the fight I saw, and what does Roy himself claiming he was stronger than most opponents he faced have to do with him being stronger than Hagler?

He increased his muscle mass and overall strength as he moved up. No way his skinnier, lankier self at 160 was stronger physically than Marvin Hagler, one of the strongest men to fight in the sport.

A green Hopkins was certainly NOT on a prime Hagler's level, and he didn't face an out of shape James Toney at MW either, he faced an out of shape Toney at SMW. The closest he ever came to a prime Hagler was a green Hopkins, whom he beat by 8-4 decision.

I feel he edges Hagler for similar reasons, but you're not gonna pot shot and stick and move and easily outbox one of the most skilled MW's of all time just because you're faster and more athletic. Jones would outbox Hagler, at which point it would be time for Hagler to switch it into another gear and start to pressure Jones, in which case it's Jones's turn to be on the constant move lest he get hurt.

Not at all, I've said for a while now, of all the fighters to ever box, Hagler is perhaps the toughest to stop, the true "Mr. Unknockoutable". Unlike Roy.

Based on what? I'd say a straight, flush right hand from Hearns is about as hard a punch as you can take, which stunned hagler for a split second before he returned the fire.

Nah, Jones ain't hurting Hagler fighting the conservative fight he'd be fighting, but he'd outpoint him. You grossly underestimate Hagler's chin and boxing skills, and overrate Jone at MW.

 

LMAO to people saying RJJ wins by corner stoppage or ko. You obviously DO NOT know Marvin Hagler if you think that. I would go RJJ by UD in this fight. Nightmare matchup for Hagler here, but it would still be a helluva fight. I would go something along the lines of 116-112 for Roy

 

RJJ had so few fights at 160 and 168 that it is hard to really place him.

Hagler accomplished more. But in reality, I don't see him beating Roy, ever.

 

It's not conclusive but it tells us how he felt about middlewt opponents in general. And Marvin was strong, but not an exceptionally strong middlewt. I'll mention Duran again.

Marvin was far from being one of the strongest men to fight in the sport.

Hopkins was NOT Green. That's a myth. He was 28 years old and had 23 fights in his five previous years as a pro.

Roy was 24 and had 21 fights over four years. He was greener.

Oscar was greener, in pro years and fights, when he beat JCC.
Tito was greener, in pro years and fights, when he beat Comacho.

Hopkins was not yet at peak, but he was BY NO STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION, green.

I included Toney, who was in the same general level as Hagler, because in your post you stated that Jones never faced any one of Hagler's calibre in his entire career. ( I would point out that hagler never faced an opponent of Roy's calibre. The nearest he came was SRL and he struggled there.)

I watched Hagler's career from beginning to end. And I was a fan, and he was good. And there is sometimes a tendacy for nostalgic old-timers to look at the past through rose-tinted glasses. But I also watched jones' career from beginning to end (or till shot), and I can tell you, good a s Hagler was, he doesn't even begin to compare to jones. As I've said, if you're talking about the Jones who actually fought at middlewt, the fight is 'interesting'.

if you're talking about the best version of Roy you could have had at middlewt, the fight is a blow out.

No. Hearns did not have huge one punch power at MW, that was at 147.

the point is, every boxer can be stopped, no matter how good the chin.

 

Your mentioning of Duran is a useless point, just as your mentioning of Jones strength being superior is a useless point, even if it was true. Hagler boxed with Duran, he didn't brawl with him. It looked like Hearns was stronger than Duran when they fought for sure, and Hagler was certainly stronger than Hearns. Either way, as I said, even if Jones were stronger(which, at 160, he certainly wasn't) it wouldn't matter, because, like Hagler showed against Duran, if you don't use your strength to your advantage, it doesn't matter. Jones was never a fighter to use his strength to his advantage.

I disagree. At MW, he certainly was.

LOL, Hopkins had faced no top notch competition prior to Jones, and most certainly wasn't the fighter he would become, to say otherwise shows either lack of understanding, or simply that you're trying too hard to win this argument by going against logic.

Hopkins was nowhere near his prime, and when you're before your prime, you're green. Maybe not a rookie, but green compared to your prime.

Your point? Bringing up two guys bigger than their aging opponents?

I've given my definition of green.

And the point I am making is this, that Hopkins was not on the level of a prime Hagler, and he still gave Jones a good fight. A prime Hagler would've possibly beaten the tight Jones that fought Bernard that night.

Hearns and SRL are similar to a MW Jones's level. An out of shape Toney is not on Hagler's level, and that was a prime SMW Jones that beat Toney anyway, not the MW Jones.

Jones was better than Hagler in your eyes because he was more entertaining. I rate Jones higher than Hagler in a head to head sense as well, but not that much higher, especially not at MW. Jones was a totally different style to Hagler. Someone could watch the way Hamed dismantled his opponents and say someone like Barrera was not as good because he wasn't as dominant or impressive against his comp, but that doesn't mean it's true.

BS. I have said why already. Roy was not as good at MW as he would've been period at SMW I don't believe, and nobody blows out Hagler. Hagler would've gotten outboxed yes, but not blown out. A past his prime Hagler arguably beat SRL, and yes, Jones was better at MW than SRL, but so was a prime Hagler better than the old Hagler that fought SRL. A prime Hagler was much more versatile, and upon being outboxed by Jones, as I have said, he would switch gears and pressure and try to brawl with him. You can't dominate someone with your back to the ropes or on your bicycle. Del Valle put Jones on his ass and made him run for God's sake, and Hagler couldn't?

He still had very good power, and was better at 154 actually than 147 I'd say. Either way, taking a full right to the chin from one of the best right hands ever and barely flinching disproves your theory that anyone can be KO'd with one shot.

By other factors, such as cuts, possibly, but Jones isn't coming close to stopping Hagler if he couldn't even come close to stopping Hopkins.

 

My point was that Hagler's overwhelming strength was not apparent against a guy who's best days were at 135, and it would have been less apparent against a guy who was capable of holding his own aagainst 230 lb fighters.

Whether he had yet faced top notch opponents or not, he was still on the general level of Hagler.

NOWHER NEAR misses the mark. He was approaching prime in years and abilities. Lennox was near his prime in 1993 even though he didn't REACH prime until about 1999.

And yours is not the generally accepted definition of green. Green is generally understood to mean starting out, with no, or few fights under the belt. Five years and twenty three fighs and being a top title contender does not make yoy green. You may not be at prime, but you're certainly not green.

My point was to further reinforce that Hopkins was NOT green when he faced Jones, any more than Tito or Oscar would have been considered green in the fights I cited.

Key word there is MY

No. He was also more dominant.

Actually it's unknowable.

You can. Watch Jones-Kelly. Jones was on his bicycle, as you put it, and he dominated Kelly, KOing him with one punch, from the ropes.

It doesn't. Surely I don't have to explain why not. A harder hitter than hearns catching him flush and then taking advantage would stop him. And
the fact that something didn't happen does not prove that it couldn't have happened. You're far from being slow. Think it through.


What we're arguing about comes down mostly to unknowable and unprovable opinion, It's further complicated by the fact that we are not always on the same page as to which version of Jones we are discussing, the Jones that actally fought at MW (In which case I've conceded that it might have been a good close fight) or the best possible MW Jones could have become if he went on to his prime, but stayed at 160.

I'll leave it there. It's been interesting speculation.


BTW, where have you been lately?

 

I don't see how you guys would say Jones would KO or TKO Marvin. Now Jones would do the stick and move and potshot game plan to win by decision but to say Jones would overwhelm Marvin at MW? Hagler was too strong to be KO'ed by a lighter version of Jones. There is no way Jones at MW was stronger than Hagler.... faster, with better hand speed and agility yea...but not stronger like most people have said...decision victory for Jones unless Marvin pressures him the ENTIRE fight...but then again he couldn't knockout SRL after all that time off...but I still think SRL should've lost that bout everytime I see it lol

 

RJJ by controversial decision :-D

 

Roy Jones is bigger, faster, at 160 a bigger puncher, never had chin problems there.
Jones UD

 

Hopkins put the most pressure and is a nightmare matchup for 98% of middleweights including Hagler. Jones schooled Hopkins and busted him up easily. I have no doubt Jones would easily stop Marvin.