Roy Jones Jr. Vs The Black Uhlan of The Rhine

Toney fought very well at cruiser, which was Max's weight division in the modern sense... Toney had enough pop to stop an iron chinned Holyfield and the skill to survive at Heavyweight as a midget counter puncher with no foot movement.

Are you really that sure that Max would take him.

 

Max took Joe Louis so yeah. He also took Sharkey and Walker at a time when both were considered the best in the division. I like Toney, but he defeated a diminished Holyfield who couldn't lift his lead arm to defend the counter right. If you re-watch that fight - Holyfield in round one is more like the younger Evander and he clearly wins the round.

Quite frankly Max was the second best heavyweight of the decade of the 1930's and had a prime fighting weight of 196. I just can't pick guys like Toney and Jones over him at heavy. Jones fought one time in the division against a less than stellar opponent and Toney while incredibly durable and slick often did not have the work rate to consistently win. I do think Toney Schmeling would be better match than jones schemling where I see Jones getting ko'd.

 

Some real Roy Jones nuthugging **** for brains comments on here. "Schmeling was a third rater at best" This from a guy who styles himself a historian. A spastic could come up with a more convincing argument. "Toney stopped the iron chinned Holyfield" Yeah, nevermind that Holyfield was a good ten years past his prime and was right smack dab in the middle of a four year losing streak in which he consistently performed so poorly that he was banned from fighting in New York in his very next bout to protect him from himself. So make all the bull**** excuses you want but Toney's fat ass isnt beating Schmeling no matter what version of him shows up and neither is Hopkins, Hill, or Johnson and Id be comfortably betting everything I own on that and Id win big.

 

I have to agree. I saw that third rater comment and was like this person can't be serious. Schmeling fought elite heavies in their prime and won, often times won big. Just because he fought in an era before bouts were shown in color doesn't mean blown up steroid users toney and Jones would win.

 

Nevermind that he was only stopped twice in his career, once by Bowe and once by Toney. And that he fought to a feeble old age and was still not stopped. Chins don't always go on fighters. Sometimes they actually have the effect of improving through technique (see: Waldo, Foreman, Ali)…

And I haven't even picked Jones to win, just saying that if he can defuse Max's jab he could pull off the feat, so can the "nuthuggin" bull****.

And yes, there was no way that Jones could pull off what a crappy Penn State football player managed...

 

Hamas was not crappy. Only lost to two fighters his whole career and was a top ranked challenger.
I'm assuming we're choosing the fighters at their best and not cherry picking select losses, although they do factor into an overall impression.

I stand by my choice of Max by KO over jones and deciscion over Toney and KO over hill and Hopkins.

Schemling was a lean 196 that had very good power - he carried his power through an entire fight as evidenced by his KO in 15 of Stribling and his KO 12 of Louis. He was exceptionally well conditioned he did not tire - and had superb timing. Jones with that added bulk got tagged by Ruiz who is far slower than Max and less accurate. Schmeling would wait and be patient, he would adjust to Jones speed and when he lost that fraction of fresh legs around the 4th round he would unleash his right. Jones relied too heavily on his athleticism and at heavy he wouldn't be able to spring out of harms way as fast as he did at middle, super middle and light heavy. He gets caught and goes to sleep somewhere around the 6th round.

 

Schmeling never fought at middleweight btw and the majority of his fights were at heavy. At age 19 he was already 175

 

Compared to the best non-heavyweights in history Schmeling was a third-rater, where skills and cleverness were concerned. Ripping words out of context is not a good practice for a historian.
Walker being considered among the best of the heavyweights - not what contemporary writers thought of him. He was considered barely a second-rater at heavyweight.

 

You contradict yourself Senya. Mickey Walker began his career at 140 and eventually fought all the way up to heavy. He is considered by most experts a top 15 p4p fighter of ALL TIME. As a heavy he won 5 of 7 matches going into the fight with Max. With one loss and one "disputed" draw against then champion Sharkey. So disputed in fact that when Mickey signed to fight Max most CONTEMPRORAY papers of the day billed the fight as the real heavyweight championship of the world. So what did this third rater Schmeling do against this all time p4p more skilled smaller natural man. He slaughtered him wining every round and having Mickey's corner throw in the towel.

Back to Jones vs Schmeling and weight. Jones began his career as a junior middle of 154. Max began his as a teenager at 175 a light heavy. 21lbs difference. Max's prime weight was 196lbs Jones was 168 a 28lb difference.
I am comfortable in believing max's natural physical advantage coupled with his impressive skill set(which seems greatly under appreciated here) would be more than enough to handle Jones as a heavy.

 

You keep wanting to change the argument from head to head to pound for pound. That isnt the way this kind of discussion works. Its not "Toney Vs. Schmeling if we shrunk Schmeling down" I ask again, do you seriously think the Hopkins, Toney, Johnson, or Hill THAT JONES FOUGHT would beat Schmeling? No. I didnt think so. Tip toe around that answer all you want by saying "well, hmmm, uhhh, in a pound for pound sense." Whatever, you said enough, even you dont think they would.

It doesnt matter if YOU think Schmeling was an all time great. He was. He was a major star with cross over appeal who managed to win the HW championship despite being foreigner and fighting under hostile conditions (something Jones never was willing to do when it mattered) and in so doing made himself a household name and sizeable fan base in this country. Along the way he managed to notch impressive wins over HOFers Joe Louis, Mickey Walker, Young Stribling, and Jack Sharkey. In addition to beating respected contenders Johnny Risko, Steve Hamas (whose career he ended by brutal, brain damage enducing KO), and Paolinio Uzcudan. Took part in two fight of the years. He was robbed of being the first HW champion to regain his title when Jim Braddock flat out ran out of a title defense against him. He was inducted into both the Ring hall of fame and the IBHOF (in only its third induction year), and was ranked the #9 all time HW by Nat Fleischer. Something tells me that if Jones was scared shitless of Dariuz (who wasnt a pimple on Schmelings ass) then he isnt going anywhere near this "third rater" ...LOL.

Schmeling did not fight at middleweight. Schmeling Germany's national amateur light heavyweight champion at 18 years old. In his prime he was in the low 190s which outweighs Jones best weight by at least 22 pounds. Lets not pretend that 22 pounds on an all time great fighter isnt a daunting prospect. As far as Jones weighing 201 unofficially against Ruiz lets not sit here and pretend that a guy who participates in a cardio intensive sport like boxing can put on 20 plus pounds of solid muscle in such a short time, be ripped and not be on steroids. I mean if you want to argue that **** it strains credibility to say the least. Jones' dick jigglers dont want to hear that or admit it but its a fact, the guy was juicing. Take that out of the equation and its a different discussion altogether. Its like pretending that Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa and all of those other baseball players with forearms like canned hams, the jawbone of an ass, and asses that looked like they belong on medea would have been competetive with Babe Ruth and Roger Maris (never mind the longer season). BUT with all of that put into its proper perspective. Let Jones come roided up to his eyeballs like he did against Ruiz and I still say it doesnt tell me he could beat Schmeling. Ruiz was **** and the only reason anyone heard of him was because he was one of Don Kings last HWs. Anyone who doubted that Jones took that fight knowing full well he would win needs to go back to watching soap operas because they kept you on the edge of your seat. To the rest of the world it was poor theater and predictable.

Its funny how you want to compare a non prime Schmelings losses as some example of how a prime Schmeling would do against Jones. Is that really a can of worms you want to open? I mean we could talk about how Jones was embarrassed and frustrated against mediocre Griffin to the point that he fouled out. We could talk about how he ducked every single challenging match available to him for a full decade. We can talk about his back to back brutal stoppages at the hands of Tarver and the feather fisted Johnson. Or is embarrassing loss to Calslappy. Or his one round loss to Danny Green. Or being taken to the wood shed by Hopkins after ducking a rematch for nearly 20 years. Wanna talk about that knockout to Lebedev? Should we ignore the whole Dariuz debacle that had Jones so embarrassed he tried to force HBO to not even mention Darius name? I find that ironic because the lineal HW champion was blatantly ducking Schmeling whereas Jones was blatantly ducking the lineal LHW champion... Do we really want to start comparing such things or would you rather just talk prime for prime? I thought you might.


Wait, so you dont want to talk about Jones steroid abuse but you want to say that if Schmeling were fighting today he would likely be a cruiserweight... Why? Because thats where the money is at? For a century LHW and then Cruiserweight was seen as a stop over on the way to big money at HW. Jones was one of the first guys to actually take refuge in what had historically been one of boxings weakest and least glamorous divisions. You think in the steroid era a guy who naturally, well trained, and athletic weighed 190+ pounds would stay cruiserweight in the weak ass watered down division that saw Roy Jones win a paper title? Ha. I think not. If Jones, a natural 168 pounder could pack on 33 pounds of solid muscle with his concoction of magic pills what do you think Schmeling would be doing? And thats totally ignoring that this "more attainable" division was totally sidestepped by Jones and ignored completely when Vasili Jirov was there. Jones wanted no part of that one dimensional, but rugged, aggressive, durable bodypuncher even when HBO was willing to throw big money at him to fight him. I say again, if hes not fighting Jirov hes not fighting Schmeling and his unwillingness to face guys like Jirov and Darius (and anyone else whose heart is still beating) tells me he knew a lot more about his limitations than his deluded fans ever did.

To compare Hopkins level of experience to Jones is ludicrous and I doubt even you believe it. Jones was already an HBO fighter when he fought Hopkins. He had been an Olympic athlete who had travelled around the world in competition (which anyone will tell you is a massive boost). When he fought Hopkins he had already met Vaca, Castro, Wolfe, and Thomas. All of whom were better than anyone Hopkins fought by a damn sight. You are the first person Ive ever heard try to argue that Hopkins wasnt at at least some deficit going into this match. Irregardless, the question wasnt whether Jones was green, the question was could that Hopkins that Jones beat beat Schmeling. No, is the short answer.

Again, nobody cares about the pound for pound component. Whats asked is could those men that were listed beat Schmeling at the point in their career when they fought Jones. Its a simple question and the answer in every single case is no. You ask if Gipsy Daniels would beat Jones. The simple answer is would Dennis Lebedev? Or Danny Green? Suddenly a possible yes doesnt sound so far fetched does it? So again, you want to pick Jones best wins against Schmelings worst defeat. Fine, we can play that game, Joe Louis and Mickey Walker not only beat, but easily beat anyone Jones lost to. Fair enough. Louis would kill Jones. Thats not hyperbole, he would kill him, literally. If Glen Johnson can leave him a quivering puddle on the floor Joe Louis would detach his head from his shoulders. Mickey Walker would even have a good shot at knocking Jones out. Id give Young Stribling (who I am not fond of) an even shot at beating Jones. etc. See how that works. Say what want about who Schmeling lost to but his lows are no lower than Jones' and his highs are much higher.

Im not the one that phrased the discussion in a manner to say: "Jones beat Hopkins, Hill, Johnson, and Toney so he would beat Schmeling." You are the one who keeps insisting that those wins are somehow indicative of Schmelings chances against Jones.

As for Jones accomplishments being better than Schmeling we can agree to disagree. I think Jones is the poster boy for this watered down style over substance cess pool that has typified boxing from the late 1990s on. He was a chicken **** who hid behind his HBO contract, avoided challenging fights, and we finally saw why when he continuously got his ass kicked. The guy never learned to box and relied almost exclusively on reflexes which were augmented for most of his career by PEDs. If you think beating a stream of no-hopers is more impressive than anything Schmeling did then I would say keep pretending you are a fan of athletic competition when its obvious you are just a member of the cult of personality.

 

Whatever, you can mince words all you want but if thats what you meant why are you taking a head to head argument and trying to apply pound for pound standards to it? (Who is taking what out of context?) To denigrate Schmeling. Period. Its a weak argument and borne out of desperation. This is particularly in light of you making this statement and then a sentence later trying to tear down Walker, who is literally the epitome of the point you were trying to make, in order to prop up Jones, now you are using it to bash Schmeling. Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth. But this old ground between us. You love Jones, I think hes ****. We can agree that we will never see eye to eye in that regard.

 

Great posts Klompton!!!! Laying the hammer down. One small inaccuracy, which actually betters your argument. Schmeling actually fought in 4 fights of the year, winning three 1929, 1931, and 1936. Losing 1933 (Baer).
I see it the same as you, and great inclusion of how Schmeling came to a foreign country to challenge the best for the lineal title, a fact Jones never attempted. Ran from if you're being honest.

 

Sorry for the triple post, wasn't getting a good connection.

 

Great posts Klompton!!!! Laying the hammer down. One small inaccuracy, which actually betters your argument. Schmeling actually fought in 4 fights of the year, winning three 1929, 1931, and 1936. Losing 1933 (Baer).
I see it the same as you, and great inclusion of how Schmeling came to a foreign country to challenge the best for the lineal title, a fact Jones never attempted. Ran from if your being honest.