Roy Jones Jr. vs Thomas Hearns

Hearns had more dimensions than most guys. He could box and punch and was fast, the one detriment to Tommy was himself. He liked to brawl and go for knockouts and leave himself open. But the guy who knocked him out Barkley, is a guy who will take punches in order to give. That is the only type of guy who beats Hearns. You cannot be afraid to get hit with Hearns. I respect Roy as one of the greatest of all time, but stylewise it would be very hard for him. He better hope to get Tommy out early because if he didn't the fight would last very long after that. .

 

No, Eubank worked as a sparring partner for Bomber Graham in the 80s before he was a champ, Graham outboxed him for the majority of their sparring but Eubank scored a KD against Graham. Nelson also outboxed Eubank in sparring around that time

The argument started because Eubank supposedly (according to Naz) was asking Naz to drop Ingle as his manager. Hence Ingle bringing up the Nelson/Graham 'stood im on izzzz head'

 

Floyd has better fundamentals but it's Floyd that can't do the things RJJ does. Jones has a far better radar/punch slipper/reactions, faster hands, far more power, far better left hook

Imagine Roy Jones against a 168lb Ricky Hatton, he'd take him out in 2 rounds

Maybe, Roy showed plenty of toughness in Tarver 1, it's remarkable he wasn't pushed by the level, his rope a doping against Gonzalez, Telesco and Hall showed toughness

Seriously, that was a great performance but Corrales isn't near the same class as Toney, Toney is arguably more skilled than Floyd although nowhere near as well conditioned. Corrales

The difference is Floyd would likely not lose a round against a Castillo level fighter and probably stops him

Floyd claimed to have a rotator injury coming in but he used both hands in the fight, I think he may have had a problem but he could use the shoulder. Jones broke his hand prior to the Telesco fight

Jones against Tarver was drained, gassed after a few rounds breathing through his mouth and old. Jones made adjustments and outhustled Tarver, using angles and movement while taking punishment and hard shots

RJJ had to adjust against Griffin, Harding and Reggie Johnson too

Many myself included wouldn't rate these above say Andre Ward or give them much chance against Jones. You're vastly overrating Benn here, a boxer who lost and got a gift against Malinga

He's never fought anyone nearly as good as Toney/Hopkins. Or Marquez/DLH aside faced technicians like Reggie Johnson, Harding, Griffin. Or given up 40lbs to fight for a heavyweight title. Floyd's fought more TV friendly brawlers that were hyped up though and sold tickets to certain demographics

Yea I know, look at how Hearns took on McCallum not just at 154lbs but at 160lbs too and fought the best middleweights like Kalambay, Herol Bomber Graham, Nunn, Eubank, Benn and Toney.

 

I have Tommy Hearns career set and fight after fight all he mainly did was keep his left hand at his waist and right hand at his chest and just jabbed,jabbed,jabbed and waited to throw a right hand, that was his one and only dimension for the most part......And Tommy's speed was overrated as well cause he needed a very stationary target to get any speedy combination's off, he couldn't just use his speed on a elusive target such as Roy.

Like I said Hearns offensive output was limited/predictable and Roy would read that right away and get the TKO win in 8 or less.

 

Thanks for the response

I agree Roy is quicker and more powerful with a better left hook (for their respective sizes), however I don't know about 'far better' radar and reactions'. I think Floyd has the superior defence personally, he also has the better chin and recovery powers. The shot Mosley hit Floyd was similar to the shot Tarver hit Roy with, but Floyd stayed on his feet, and knew how to weather the storm.

Ricky Hatton was a good fighter, better than many opponents Roy defended against when he was champion. I think Floyd could have taken him out quicker if he wanted to, but he was enjoying himself and putting on a show, towards the end of the fight, Floyd was toying with him, he could have gotten rid of him quicker. Roy did something similar in many of his fights.

Floyd has often rope a doped against many of his opponents, I remember him letting N'dou punch himself, whilst hardly landing any meaningful shots.

Agreed that Roy did show toughness in Tarver 1, though I think Tarver beat himself that night. Tarver really thought he could beat Roy, and approached the fight showing him little respect to start with, when had someone gone after Roy like that before? He had real problems with Tarver's approach in the fight.

Agreed that Toney was more skillful, but his performance was dire. Jones was brilliant though, That Jones would beat any version of Toney no matter what shape he shows up in. Toney is a little overrated as well on here in my opinion. His career really tailed off after he left the MW division.

You mean Roy? No way, Castillo was extremely tough and relentless. Remember what Griffin was able to do to Roy by applying educated pressure and backing him up. Castillo was excellent at that, and tougher than Griffin.

I don't know how much the injuries affected each fighter. Vitali Klitschko was still using both hands against Byrd in the 9th round, then he retired on his stool citing a similar injury to Floyd's. To a degree,

I think if Tarver had applied pressure throughout, he would have gotten the decision. Jones wasn't drained, he was starved because he chose not to eat very much the day of the fight, to avoid stomach cramps. That's why he was weaker. He wasn't dehydrated, after the weigh in he went back up to a full 185 pounds, which was his usual weight on fight night as a LHW. There's a video where he's talking to Jim Lampley, and it's a week before the Tarver fight, and he says he's lost the necessary weight. No doubt that his body needed time to readjust, and it affected him in the first fight. For the rematch, he said he'd readjusted and felt back to his best, before the KO, he looked quick, sharp and good as ever, he was winning the fight hands down before Tarver landed that shot.

True, in the rematch he did make the necessary adjustments to beat Griffin. In the first fight though, I had him losing up to the DQ (as did many others and one judge). People say that he was going to KO Griffin, but forget that Roy scored a knockdown in round 7, and Griffin recovered to win round 8, he was also winning round 9 before he got caught with the shot that hurt him. Roy did make adjustments in those fights, and against Tarver and G.Johnson
he wasn't able to adjust when he needed to. Glen Johnson was another, who was on a good run leading up to the fight, he showed Roy no respect and went after from the first bell, and Roy struggled. Glen put relentless pressure on him, and Roy struggled with it.

 

It's all about styles. In my opinion, Nigel Benn presents a tougher fight for Roy Jones than Andre Ward, because of Benn's relentlessness and punching power. What does Ward have that will worry Roy? Calzaghe was skillful, fast and also applied pressure, he was good at backing opponents up and making them exchange, his stamina, chin and conditioning can't be overlooked. Mclellan was a beast, he could have gone on to great things.

Roy does have those two marquee wins, though I feel you're rating Toney and Hopkins a little too highly.

Whilst Roy has the two bigger individual wins, I think overall Floyd's resume is deeper. I rate Floyd's win over Cotto higher than Roy's win over Ruiz. I don't rate John Ruiz highly at all, if we're using this criteria, 6 ft 3 220 pound David Haye's win over 7 ft 2 320 pound is one of the best wins of all time?

McCallum won his first world title in the 154 division in October 1984. At that time, Hearns' camp was in negotiations to fight Marvin Hagler in April '85, which was announced in December '84. So when was Hearns-McCallum at 154 supposed to happen? How can Tommy be accused of ducking McCallum, when he signs to fight Marvin Hagler? Hearns took on the bigger challenge, and tougher fight. Note, when Hearns was at 154, the champions were Benitez and Duran, he beat both. By the time McCallum was a champion, he was moving up to fight Hagler.

After Hagler, Hearns took out number 1 contender James Shuler. He was chasing a Hagler rematch, when this didn't happen he moved up to LHW instead.

On coming back down, Hearns won his WBC title against Roldan, then lost it in his first defence. It was hardly like he had a title reign that paralleled with these fighters. After this, he moved up to 168 to win the WBO title against Kinchen. Then made another super fight with SRL. So I'm struggling to see where fights against the likes of Kalambay and Nunn should have taken place? Hearns' last fight at MW was against Barkley in '88. By the time the likes of Benn, Toney and Eubank were relevant, Hearns was up at 168 and 175, then CW.

I don't think it can be compared to the fighters that Floyd and Roy respectively didn't face.

Thanks for explaining that, I hadn't seen it in a long time.

 

When Jones was Jones he could have beaten anyone.
Remember at Mid and Super Mid he was KOing the **** out of everyone. When he stepped up to Lt Heavy, he mostly dazzed with UD wins.

Hearns record at Super Middle was 2-0-1, no KO's. He'd already been KO'd 3 times at lighter weights.
Hearns left the Super Middleweights with a 47-3-1 38 KO's record.

Jones record at Super Middle was 7-0 6 KO's.
Jones left the Super Middles with a 33-0 29 KO's record.

At Super Middle, it's Jones all the way.

 

well I have his fights in my head.All fighters fight similar in each fight, that is who they are. You aren't going to have Mike Tyson's style one fight and Michael Spinks the next. Hearns changed his style I think more than most. He could brawl and box. I can tell you different fights he did different tactics. Cuevas on the attack. Luis Primera his first title defense he used a body attack. Shields he jabbed and stood more in front of Randy to pick him off. Duran he used the fadeaway right and a lot of feinting around his jab, Leonard he used his jab and didn't throw much body punching. Virgil Hill he boxed and stayed in one spot and preserved his legs and didn't move forward enough to get into Virgil's counter left. Benitez he stayed on the outside and in ring center very similar to the Virgil fight 9 years later. Cuevas he went on the attack. Shuler? Tommy saw the cross armed defense and used body punches to separate the gloves and punch in between the gloves. He didn't just hold his left down and wait for a counter. I think you should watch your video again and see the differences. Like any fighter Hearns has a certain style. With Roy I sometimes thought his style in every fight was the same. Fight in ring center and land pitty pat, or go to the ropes and cover up. The whole thing about Thomas Hearns was how versatile he was. He could box and punch. Roy is a guy who did not have great boxing fundamentals but he had great reflexes, Once those reflexes started to go he started to get hit, which is why a guy like Hopkins with better ring fundamentals can fight longer into his career with success. And Hearns, got better with infighting when he got older and blocking inside punches. I think Tommy was too much warrior for Roy. That would be the difference, and Roy not taking chances.. Tommy was not Virgil Hill, who I think was great, but not in Thomas level.

 

I basically agree with you though just want to add that Tommy Hearns had a pretty nasty lefthook to the body.

 

I must add, saying Tommy is predictable sort of is an insult on guys like Duran or Cuevas or Benitez or Hill whom Tommy beat. If he was that predictable, those guys would have found a way to beat him. Hagler wouldn't have had to fight the fight of his career, and Leonard would have had an easy time with him. I never thought I would hear Tommy was one dimensional when I read in a boxing history book that Hearns was the best combination of boxer/puncher in the history of boxing. And Tommy was just as fast as Virgil Hill in 1991, 11 years and 30 pounds over his first title weight.

 

A better fight would be James Toney vs. Thomas Hearns at Middleweight, now that would be a great fight.

 

I don't think they would fight each other. They are good friends with each other. Everytime I see them in photographs they both seem to really like each other. I think Toney went to Hearns house when he was a teenager to talk about his amateur boxing career and Hearns gave him advice to stick to it and work hard, so James really sees Hearns as a role model, and Tommy really respects James. So it wouldn't happen. If they were matched up and did fight? I think it would go 12 rounds. Not an exciting fight. James would neutralize Tommy and Tommy would sit back and jab. Who knows who would win.

 

Hi mate, Thanks for your great reply. I'm sorry I haven't responded sooner. I meant to reply on Sunday, but something came up, and I've been busy this week.

Roy got a gift last week. If Roy hadn't have had an agreement to fight Wlodarczyk if he won, there's no way he'd have got the verdict. They gave him the verdict so he could come back again in November.

Yes I saw fight of their lives. It was great, although obviously sad. But Gerald wasn't a nice person was he? I couldn't believe some of the things that were said.

I've never heard that Nelson sparred Eubank. That's interesting. I know Herol was well respected by everyone, and he was awkward and slippery. I've heard Benn say that he wouldn't have fancied fighting him.

Yeah Duran was definitely intimatidated by Duran, but he agreed to fight him straight away. Who in their right mind doesn't train properly to face Hearns? Duran was crazy!

Yeah Naz was great, but it was never going to last. I didn't think he'd retire at 28 though. I'm sure he wouldn't have retired that early if he'd have still been with Brendan. It was Naz's older brother Riath that was to blame for his downfall. When Naz was young and first turned pro, they agreed that Brendan would get 25% of Naz's earnings. Naz was more than happy with this until he started making really big money. When he was getting really well paid, Riath stepped in, and said he was giving Brendan too much money. He advised Naz to renegotiate, and that was the beginning of the end. Riath took over as his manager, and from that point on, he lost all discipline. If he wasn't prepared to listen to someone such as Manny Steward, he wasn't going to listen to anyone. I was so happy when Barrera beat him. Then afterwards, he said it was the path that Allah had chosen for him. What a tool! The reason he lost is because he didn't train properly, and he did what he wanted, when he wanted. He was very entertaining, but I'm glad he's retired.

You'll have to check, but I'm sure Chavez vs Martinez is a definite. I heard Freddie Roach saying yesterday, that Chavez will walk straight through him, and Martinez's punches won't have any affect on him.

Madaina at 154 is surely going to take a hammering against Alvarez? That's a very poor fight. I think Alvarez vs Martinez would be a cracking fight!

I think Haye vs Chisora will be a good fight also. I'm looking forward to it. I just think that it's funny, that Haye retired last year, and nobody seemed to care, so now he's come back.

 

Why do you keep saying Roy refused to engage against James Toney??? Have you even seen that fight?? Roy engaged, and kicked Toney's ass..

Roy Jones answered a lot of questions about him in that fight, as the announcers repeated quite a few times..

He answered that he had a decent chin, Larry Merchant mentioned he was impressed with how Roy handled some of Toney's clean shots.. And the few times Roy was hit with something clean, he came back with some of the most masterful combinations seen in a boxing ring, which proved he had a heart, and would engage..

Roy Jones was at his very best that night, fighting the man most considered to be the best, and dominated... Any SMW without an Iron Jaw or great defense, (Toney had both) would have been knocked out by Roy on that night.

 

Part 2.

I forgot to answer your question, regarding Roy's chances against Wlodarczyk. I don't know hardly anything about him, but he knocked Danny Green out recently with a fantastic left hook, from absolutely nowhere. It was a cracking shot. He's got fast hands, and fantastic power. He knows Roy's done, and he's not going to show him an ounce of respect. I think he's just going to walk straight through him. I hope I'm wrong, but I honestly can't see it going 5 rounds.

Floyd does have superior fundamentals. Roy's style was always based on speed and athleticism, and as he aged, he was always going to be in trouble. There's no reason why Floyd can't continue to fight at the top, for a good few years yet. But Floyd couldn't do things that Roy did, that have nothing to do with athleticism. Like I said in my previous post, Floyd has never had Roy's shot selection. He's never thrown blinding double and treble hooks, and uppercuts in combos etc. He was more skilled in other ways, but nobody could do what Roy did. Floyd nowadays doesn't seem to throw a lot of combos, he's definitely slowing down.

I don't know if Floyd has faced better opposition. He's fought more bigger names, but he hasn't fought a lot of fighters at their best. He's had some great wins, but against the other greats, you have to look at the circumstances. In my opinion the Shane Mosley win doesn't mean a great deal. Mosley was done at that point. He's been done for a long time. Marquez was too small at the weight, but it was a great performance. Oscar, as we've discussed, had only fought 3 times in as many years. He was 34 and past his best. That in my opinion is a very good win, but not a great win. I think a younger version of Oscar would have won that night.

As I've also discussed, Floyd is absolutely obsessed with money. It's all he ever speaks about. Now Oscar was adament he could beat him, and begged for a rematch. It would have been for millions of dollars, and Floyd took a vacation instead. Oscar had scared him, and he didn't want to fight him again. In 2006 the whole world wanted to see him fight Cotto, and he didn't want to know. Cotto isn't the fighter that he once was, and everybody knew Floyd was going to win a few months ago, when they fought. So he's fought all these big name fighters, but you have to put things into context.

He's also scared stiff of Manny. I don't care what anyone says, he'll put up every obstacle he can, to avoid that fight. So Floyd is a class act, but it's not just how strong your opposition is, it's when you fight them. Boxing is all about timing. The timing of the fights. Sugar Shane when he was younger, would have given Floyd a hell of a fight, but he never had a chance of winning the other year. So Floyd definitely has fought bigger name fighters than Roy, that's without a doubt, but that doesn't tell the whole story.

It's ok for Floyd to say "It's not about the weight, it's about the skills" when he's had no experience of it. He's moved up through the divisions in time, as he's got older. But he's never put on over a stone of muscle and jumped two weight divisions at 34, and then come back down. It would be like him fighting someone at 168 and then rushing back to fight someone back at 154, all in the space of about 10 months. Who knows how that would affect him?


We've mentioned Valuev before. I see your point, but the circumstances are completely different. David Haye was in his 20's when he fought Valuev, and he'd only had 20 odd fights. He was also bigger than Roy, and he was used to fighting 200 pound plus guys. Obviously he'd never fought anyone as big as Valuev, but he was used to facing big guys. Roy was 34, he'd had nearly 50 fights, and the biggest guys he'd fought, had weighed in at 175 pounds. Holy had just been robbed by the judges when he fought Valuev, and Ruiz at the time, had just recently beaten Evander.

The whole weight issue with Roy, is not just about who he fought, it's the timing of it. He was past his physical peak, and the whole process of him coming back down, was rushed. So I see your point, and it's a very good one. But I think given the circumstances, Ruiz presented a bigger challenge to Roy, than what Valuev did to Haye.

I think it's impossible to rank fighters. But you have to make an in depth analysis when you rank them. You have to take everything into consideration, and put things into context. This is what opens up debate, and creates controversy. My personal opinion is, fighters should be ranked on there overall skills as well as just their resume. Now you concede that in your opinion Roy would/could have beaten Benn, Eubank, Collins, DM, and Joe if they'd have fought earlier. Now lets suppose that Roy had beaten all of those fighters, and he'd done it in style. He still wouldn't be ranked up there with any of the fab four, because they were the fab four. Roy never had the opportunity to have a Frazier, Foreman, Leonard type rival, and that counts against his ranking, which I think is unfair on him.

I think you have to analyse skills, achievements, opposition and the timing of the opposition, when you rank someone. Marciano will never be considered the best heavy of all time. Calzaghe's overall ranking suffers, but Joe was better than his ranking suggests, and I think Roy is better than his ranking suggests.

Did you ever see Bert Sugar's ranking of the top ten heavies of all time?

It was on ESPN classic, and I had a lot of respect for the man, but his rankings didn't make sense. He had Louis as his number 1, and Ali was his number 2. Larry Holmes was in the studio at the time. Larry said, "I don't agree with that, because Muhammad at his best, would have beaten Louis in my opinion". Then Bert responded by saying, "It's not about who would beat who, it's about how dominant they were in their era. Joe Louis was more dominant in his era, than what Ali was in his" So based on that, he said that Joe Louis was the greatest heavy of all time. How does that make any sense? Ha! If you think Louis would beat Ali, then fair enough, have him as your number 1, but if you think Ali would have beaten him, how can you rank Louis higher. It doesn't make any sense to me.

I'll always rank Floyd behind SRL for example. Because not only do I think that Ray beat better fighters, I also think he had more skills. If I do a head to head between them, Ray always comes out on top. I also think that if they'd have fought each other in their primes, I think Ray would of beaten him. Therefore I have to rank Ray ahead of Floyd. That's how I rank fighters. Not just on resumes, but on skills.

Floyd is undefeated, and Ray lost 2 or 3 fights, but in my opinion, Ray was better than Floyd.

Despite Roy not having a fantastic resume, and great rivals to fight like SRL, Ali and SRR, I think ability wise, he has to be one of the greatest fighters who's ever lived.

Great debate!

Regards, Loudon.