Roy Jones Jr. vs Thomas Hearns

Hearns by KO at both weights

 

The two things that Tommy did well which was his left jab and overhand right, he did great, but they were predictable......He was an ATG who was a predictable fighter, deal with it, its the truth.

And again I have Tommy Hearns career set and he hardly was able to get off any combination's, so for him to be considered one of the greatest combination punchers is just false and hilarious, you and others here who even think he can beat Roy probably got the Duran and Pipino fights so engraved on your minds that ya think that Tommy was some offensive kayoing machine with master boxing skills when in-fact that's not how it completely was.

Another misconception about Hearns was that he was an exciting fighter to watch when in-fact he was quite boring to watch, but fans just simply have the Cuevas,Duran,Hagler fights so embedded on their minds that they just assume Tommy was fun to watch when he wasn't.

 

No worries mate, thanks for responding again.

Was it a clear robbery? I heard Roy got KD'd as well. This is dark side of boxing, and they're cashing in on Roy's name. A few years ago, Roy may been capable of pulling off an upset, but at this point he's far too gone. Along with Toney and Holyfield, none of these guys should be licensed to fight.

That was a very well produced documentary. In my opinion the fault lies with Mclellans trainer, and the ringside doctors, but mainly with Mclellan's trainers.Listening to that guy sit there and deny all responsibility really annoyed me, everyone else is caught up in the fight, but they're responsibility is to care for their fighter, and they completely failed in that regard. What do you think?

I remember hearing it when I saw the press conferences. I saw an interview on youtube, and it's Herol Graham on youtube in the 80's, and he's adamant that Marvin Hagler avoided him. I think Herol would have been a very hard night for Hagler, how would you see that fight playing out? I could see Hagler just about winning a decision. Graham was so unlucky to get caught against Julian Jackson, he let his concentration slip for a second and it cost him everything, against a puncher like Jackson.

Tommy really did a job on Duran, just like against Cuevas he started fast and looked to impose his power on him. He went into the Hagler with the same strategy, but the first right hand he caught Marvin with whilst hurting him, cost Tommy his hand. From then on, he was Marvin's. In a rematch, I think Tommy would have slowed the fight down, and spoiled and jabbed his way to a decision, I don't think he would have engaged Marvin like that again.

Whilst Naz was fun to watch, I was never a huge fan. I always thought he got caught up in his own hype, he was a very good fighter, and potentially great, but he never lived up to his potential and settled for less. When he met a great fighter in Barerra, he got exposed, but he had the potential to be on that level to compete with the likes of MAB.

Thanks for writing all of that up, it was very interesting to read, after leaving the Ingles, Naz's career was poorly managed, and his boxing suffered as a result. It reminds me of Nicholas Anelka after he left Arsenal. Why do you think the likes of Floyd and Tim Bradley pride themselves on how much training they put in for each fight, that kind of dedication is what sees you remain at the top for so long.

It looks like Martinez-Chavez is actually happening! Bob Arum must be confident, though I'm still sceptical about it actually happening. To be fair, Chavez's chin has been solid so far, and he has a size advantage. However, did you see Martinez-Pavlik? Pavlik is just as big as Chavez, more skilled and a bigger puncher, and Sergio beat the crap out of him. Martinez's stamina is unbelievable, which is vital when you're facing bigger guys.

This is a fight worth getting up at 4am to watch!

Alvarez is now fighting a JWW in Josesito Lopez, I don't see the point in this fight, there are better guys at 154. Whilst people will point out that Alvarez is green, he's a world champion so surely he should be looking to fight the best now? Martinez-Alvarez would be a *******! So would Alvarez-Cotto!

Haye is one of those characters, he knows how to sell a fight. Chisora seems genuinely insane, whereas with Haye much of it's an act, I'm convinced Chisora is one of the craziest guys in boxing right now.

I'm hoping Haye actually stands his ground and gives the fans a show. Haye-Harrison and Haye-Klitschko were terrible fights

 

No-one wants to see this fight except those that stand to make money from it. I hope this fight doesn't come off, but Roy won't turn down a title shot, it is a chance to make history. A few years ago Roy might have had a chance, he still had quick hands and power, he's more diminished now.

I agree with much of that, you've made a lot of very good points. Floyd certainly doesn't have Roy's shot selections, and I've never seen Floyd hit a fighter like James Toney with triple left hooks and still get out of range to avoid the counter!

Due to Floyd's longevity, I give him the edge though. I think Floyd now is in the same stage that Roy was when he faced Tarver and Glen Johnson. Now we're seeing Floyd get hit more (Cotto caught him with some really good shots), but he's shown a great chin and he's still in great shape for his age. I read that Roy hardly trained properly for the Glen Johnson, I think that's what led to him getting knocked out, if he was properly conditioned he wouldn't have gotten stopped like that.

I think the Oscar win was a good one, in his last fight Oscar KO'd Mayorga, and he looked like he was in good shape for the fight with Floyd. Floyd clearly isn't comfortable at 154, whereas Oscar was. I think the best fight between Oscar and Floyd would have been at 140 (Floyd from the Gatti fight against Oscar from the Chavez fight), and that would have been a very close fight, Floyd would have won a close decision.

Mosley was also considered dangerous at the time, he was coming off a destructive KO of Margarito. I'd hold it in the same regard as Roy's win over Virgil Hill.

At the same weight, Marquez got robbed against Pacquiao. I think Floyd is all wrong for Marquez, and would always beat him comfortably at any weight. Floyd also has good wins over Zab Judah and Ricky Hatton. Recently the win over Cotto was a very good win, Floyd is only missing Pacquiao now. That fight has to happen.

Actually in 2006, Floyd offered the fight to Bob Arum, and it was Cotto who turned it down, saying he wasn't ready for Floyd.

Cotto's camp never once offered a fight to Mayweather's camp.

Margarito KO'd Cotto, Mosley KO'd Margarito and Floyd beat Mosley.

Why isn't Cotto now the fighter he once was? He looked as good as he's ever done against Floyd, and against Margarito in December.

Who really wanted to see the Mayweather-DLH rematch? I think the first was conclusive enough, and Oscar really tailed off after. The next fight Floyd made was against Ricky Hatton, which was the better fight.

Floyd's recent run has been impressive, the only name he's missing is Pacquiao. When did Roy ever face a series of legit opponents like Floyd has?

Floyd had been calling out and trying to make fights with the likes of Tszyu and Mosley for years, he called shane out in 1999. It was Shane who came out with excuses like 'I have problems with my teeth', so I need to take time out. When Shane went to the effort of calling out Floyd, the fight got made.

Floyd was within his rights to put up the drug testing obstacle, steroids cheating is terrible, why should fighters have unfair advantages? Even Mosley said Floyd should get Manny tested before they fight. I think it's Bob Arum who's stopped his fight from happening, because he only wants Pac to face Top Rank fighters.

Other fights have jumped weight like that. I understand what you're saying, but the way I see it, if we use this as an indicator, then Haye's win over Valuev has to be one of the greatest of all time? The weight of 175 isn't the fighters actual weights, Roy weighed 186 on fight night as a LHW, that was his true weight, making 175 was just cheating the scales as all fighters do. When Roy went to face Ruiz, at the 193 he tipped the scales at, he could have made 182 if he cut weight. Ruiz weighed 226, that's without cutting weight.

I'm sorry but I just don't rate Ruiz highly at all, I don't rate the win particularly highly. I understand that Roy won a piece of the HW title, but he didn't beat a highly regarded HW. James Toney went up and also beat Ruiz, Rahman and (shot)Holyfield.

 

I have conceded that in my opinion, but it doesn't mean that Roy gets credit for beating these guys. If he faced all of Benn, Eubank, Collins, DM and Calzaghe, with possible rematches he wouldn't have gone undefeated. Out of all those, I think Calzaghe is the one who could beat Roy.

You say it's unfair, if Roy had showed the willingness to make those fights, he could have had a rival. Those guys were out there, and Roy made some terrible fights instead, it's one thing to look great demolishing Otis Grant, but it doesn't make you a great fighter.

Joe's ranking suffers because the likes of Hopkins and Ottke turned down fights with him at the start of the decade, which would have given him the opportunity to make his legacy. People's main criticism against Calzaghe is the run of opponents he faced from Eubank-Lacy, the Hopkins and Ottke fights were what he needed.

Bert Sugar like many historians don't show enough modern fighters enough credit. No way that someone like Marciano or Dempsey beats a Klitschko. In my opinion, given his skill-set and the opponents he fought and defeated, Ali has to be the greatest HW of all time. He's wrong, because it's one thing to look dominant in a weak era, Ali came out on top of the strongest HW era.

Good point, SRL always ranks higher than Floyd in any objective list. I don't think the difference in their skill levels is that great, but Ray fought and beat better fighters. Floyd missed out on fighting Pacquiao a few years ago.

In a H2H Ray would beat Floyd hands down, but Floyd started at 130, Ray started at 147.

Thanks for the great posts and points made! I criticise the career choices Roy made, and the failed drugs test, but you can't deny he was immensely talented!

 

Knockout,

Hi mate, sorry for the very late reply.

Part 1.

I wouldn't call Roy's last fight a robbery, but I think the Pole definitely won at least 3, if not 4 rounds, and then he had the knockdown too. But Roy used his jab well, and a lot of the rounds could have gone either way.

I couldn't believe some of the things Gerald's trainer was saying. I alaways remember Gerald fighting with his gumsheild hanging out after just four rounds. A great trainer, such as Manny, would have known straight away that there was a problem. It was a great documentary, but it was hard to watch at times.

I think Herol would have been a nightmare for Mavin. Marvin had started to slip around 86/87, he was still great, but not the fighter that he'd been before. Herol was world class, no doubt about that. He was incredibally unlucky not to win a title. He was more than good enough to do so, it was just bad luck. In another era, such as today's, he'd certainly be champ, or at least have a version of the title. But there wouldn't have been a huge payday in it for Marvin, and Herol was so awkward to fight. Marvin also being a southpaw, would have helped, and maybe he might have wore him down very late? But I could definitely see Herol having more than a chance of winning.

Jackson was a huge puncher, and a great fighter, and the knockout punch is the best I've ever seen any boxer throw. Herol was outboxing him at that point though, and I think he deserved the win over McCallum, who was an amazing fighter when he was younger. I'm going to buy Herol's biography, I bet it's a great read. He came to our local working men's club, a few times in the 80's. Brendan used to bring him for charity nights. People used to line up and pay to have a chance at hitting him. He used to have his hands behind his back. About 20-30 tried, and nobody came close.

A Tommy vs Marvin rematch would have been great. I don't think Marvin and the Petronelli's wanted one though.

Yeah Naz was great, and he certainly never fulfilled his potential, but I think he would have if he'd have stayed with Brendan, and his brother hadn't have got inside his head. His brother makes me sick to be honest, because he knew how good Brendan treat him. He had him in the gym since he was 7 years old because he was getting bullied at school. His dad Sal begged Brendan to take him in. Sal should have stepped in and told Naz's brother Riath where to go. Brendan must have been sick. They saw each other literally every day for nearly 20 years, and then Naz and his brother got too greedy. They seemed to forget, that without Brendan, they wouldn't have been in the position to make millions.

People say, that Naz had natural talent, and he could probably have walked in any gym, and probably have still turned pro. Now I also believe that, but the thing is, there wasn't any other gym's in Sheffield, and Naz wouldn't have travelled to find another one. They were a very close family, that lived in a poor part of the city, and if it wasn't for Brendan's gym just around the corner from their house, he probably would never have been a fighter. So I don't think his life would have turned out the way it did, if not for Brendan. Before Brendan came to Sheffield from Ireland, there wasn't a gym there. Brendan was solely responsible for opening it.

Brendan spent hours with Naz, and Naz spent hours watching Herol. Herol was Naz's hero. So without Brendan, Naz would probably be a nobody. Riath has got a lot to answer for, and I hope what ever Business venture he's got set up at the moment, fails miserably!

I'm really excited about Martinez and Chavez. Chavez will be huge on the night though, but I'm sure Martinez is going to win, although like I say, I haven't seen much of Chavez. I just hope I can watch it on Sky or somewhere.

Alvarez vs Lopez is a very poor fight. I expected better from Oscar.

I also think Floyd's win against Oscar was good, especially because it was at 154, but Oscar was past his best. It's so rare these days, that you see two guys around the same age, and both hungry etc. As I say, boxing is all about the timing of the fights. Oscar did look great against Mayorga, but that was a full year before he fought Floyd, he hadn't fought since. Mayorga was also a full year after Sturm I believe, and that was a year after Hopkins. So he'd been in active. I'd have to check the exact days, but he'd had just three fights, in just over three years I believe.

So my thinking is, if a 34 year old Oscar, who'd hardly fought, can take him to a split, then a peak 28 year old version of him that's been active, could certainly have beaten him. Regarding the rematch, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see it. I think Floyd would have won a lot more comfortably. But the point is, he didn't want one, because he didn't want to risk it. The man is obsessed with money, and I don't think it is just for the camera's. I think if Oscar hadn't have troubled him as much as he did, I think Floyd would have jumped at a rematch. Why would he go on vacation, when he could have made millions and millions of dollars? I think he was too scared of losing his zero, and he'd had a close shave, one that was too close for comfort.

I think Mosley was finished when he fought Floyd. It was a great win against Marg, but he hadn't done anything else. He could only manage a draw against Mora, and Mayorga was knocking him all over the ring, til he found that last second knockout. I think Shane's been washed up a long time, and I don't think he was a serious threat to Floyd.

Cotto has never been the same since he lost to Marg.

Of course Floyd is well with in his rights, to want his opponents to be tested. But it goes way beyond that with Manny. He'll put up every obstacle to avoid the fight. Did he want Hatton, Oscar, Ortiz to be randomly tested up to ten days before the fight? Does any of Manny's opponents want Manny to be tested with olympic style drug testing everyday? They just get in the ring and fight him. Manny agreed to be tested, but his only request, was that they don't do it two weeks from the fight, because that's the most crucial part of camp. So Manny goes into a 8/9 week camp, and he's happy to be randomly tested at any point during the first 7 weeks, and then immediately after the fight. There's nothing wrong with that, he can't possibly hide anything.

But that wasn't good enough for Floyd. Then the last I heard, Manny had accepted the cut off date that Floyd requested, but Floyd wouldn't split the purse. Floy'd Snr has started all this up. Nobody accused Manny of doing anything wrong, till Floyd Snr opened his big mouth. Floyd Snr has scared his son. It all started after the Oscar fight. Floyd had struggled with Oscar, then 18 mths later, Manny battered him. But that's because Oscar was shot, and he was dead on the scales at the weigh in. Did you see Oscar's fight with Forbes before he fought Manny? He looked terrible! But Floyd Snr started the rumours, and everyone's jumped on top of them. Floyd doesn't want the fight.

If Manny wins big, all the Mayweathers scream that he's on roids, but when Marquez nearly beat him last year, not one of them said a thing. It's not a coincidence. After Marquez had nearly beaten him, Floyd was full of beans, and was suddenly wanting the fight, because he knew he'd easily beaten Marquez, and it gave him confidence. The Mayweather's are a complete Joke! Bradley has just come up from 140 to fight Manny without showing off about testing, so why can't Floyd? He's scared of Manny, and he's scared of losing his zero.

I know the weigh in weight is only 175, and most fighters get upto 186, but my point was, Roy was only used to fighting guys that weighed a maximum of just over 13 stones, but Haye on the other hand, was used to fighting huge guys.

Toney did go up and beat those guys, but he probably weighed as much, if not more than what they did.

 

Loudon,

Thanks for the fantastic response, that was a great read! I'll get back to you soon mate

 

Part 2.

I think If Roy had have fought all of the guys he missed including rematches, and an earlier fight with Joe, I still think he'd have been undefeated. I respect your opinion, but I don't think Joe was good enough. I think if Joe fought him around 2001-2003, I think it would have been a close fight, but I think Roy would have beaten him on a clear decision. In my opinion Roy's absolute peak, was 94/95, when he was 25/26. I think that version of Roy comfortably beats any version of Joe, and probably TKO's him.

Roy was already a 3 weight world champ when he fought Grant, he could have fights like that.

Joe's ranking is down to him. I have some sympathy with him regarding Ottke. It was obvious Ottke didn't want any part of Joe, why would he have? I know that if Joe had've had the chance to fight him earlier, he definitely would have, and he would definitely have beaten him. But when it became apparent, that Ottke didn't want the fight, Joe should have ditched his WBO belt and moved up. Instead, he waited for Ottke to retire, and his belts to become vacant. Joe was too good to cling onto the WBO belt and wait 9 years to fight Kessler.

Roy took Toney's belt, that was a lot more respected than Joe's WBO belt, and he dropped it after less than two years, to take on another challenge. Joe's WBO belt wasn't respected in the Boxing world, and neither was the SMW division, at the time, but Joe clung on to it for dear life. If he'd have moved up to 175 instead of waiting all those years to unify, he could have won a version of the 175 title. He'd have got global recognition, and a bigger bank balance, but he didn't want it.

It was pretty pointless dealing with Hopkins, because it was obvious he'd want a ridiculous amount, and he was a middleweight. They should have targetted at 175 fighter in the States to put Joe's name out there.

None of the fighters that Roy missed could have been a rival like, Frazier, Foreman, the fab four etc. Toney was his rival, because he was considered the 2nd best fighter in the world at the time, and he was undefeated and only a year older. Benn, Eubank, and Collins etc, would more than likely have been just one off fights. The fab four were all as good as each other, that's why they had great fights, and were great rivals. They were all as great as each other, and were of similar age. I don't think the guys that Roy missed were as good has he was, and unless they'd have beaten him the first time (which I don't think any of them would have) then obviously they wouldn't have been any need for a rematch or a trilogy.

But as we've discussed numerous times, there were reasons why most of those fights didn't come off. Some of those fights were missed, but then he went on to fight better fighters. He missed Collins, but then fought the guy who'd beaten him to unify the title. If Roy had've fought Collins, but then ducked Reggie, people would have gone mad. That's just one example. We know Eubank didn't want to go to the U.S. and Benn faded very quickly after his fight with Gerald, losing to Collins and Mallinga etc.

DM wouldn't go to the U.S. Roy had 7 belts, DM had one. Roy had the WBA, WBC and the IBF. DM only had the WBO, that again, wasn't well respected. He turned down $5M to go and fight Roy. There's no way Roy was going to Germany in 2001. The judging was famous for being terrible.

Regarding rematches and trilogies, I watched a documentary on Roy the other month and it was bizarre. I think it was Colin Hart or Jeff Powell, said that Roy was great, but he'd never been in a trilogy like Ali etc. (This was from around 2000, before Tarver.) But he said it as though it was a criticism. Ha! I couldn't believe it. Fighters obviously only need trilogies, if they get beat in the first place, and then they win the rematch, or have a very close first fight, and the opponent wins the rematch, and then there's a call for a third fight. But how can you criticize someone for not being involved an a trilogy? It's absolute madness!

Regarding Roy's ranking, I stand by my point, that if he'd have beaten all the guys he missed, including Joe earlier, he still wouldn't be ranked much higher than he is. He still wouldn't be up there with the fab four, because they fought in a stronger era. But fighters should be ranked on their abilities as much as there resumes. I think they're both as important as each other.

I think Roy gets treated harshly when being ranked. I think there's lots of fighters that are ranked higher than him, that weren't on his level, ability wise.

It's been great bebating with you.

Regards, Loudon.

 

Knockout,

Hi mate, just checked De la Hoya's record, because it didn't seem right, what I typed earlier. Sturm was Oscar's first fight at 160 as a warm up for Hopkins in 2004. So when he fought Mayorga in 2006, he'd been out the ring for nearly two years. Then he fought Floyd the following year. So he went into the fight with Floyd, having only had 2 fights in almost three years. I think an earlier fight between the two would have been great.

No need to respond right away, just come back if/when you've got the time.

Thanks!

Loudon.

 

I owe you an apology for an even later reply! Sorry I'd completely forgotten about this!

I hear Roy's looking to fight Lateef Kayode next, the guy Tarver just drew with. I don't suppose that's going to end well, I don't understand why he feels the need to keep fighting, I guess he still loves the sport

I agree, it really was hard to watch. It was really well produced, it would be good if they'd make a few more of them on different fights.

The way Mclellan's trainer refuses to take any blame is disgraceful. He was a complete idiot, Gerald was fighting on instincts, the trainer was on the outside looking in. He knows his fighter, and should have seen something was seriously wrong. I also think the medical staff should have spotted the issues as well, and warned Gerald's corner.

Herol G was fun to watch, I always enjoy watching fighters with unorthodox styles, who fight on instinct and reflexes, Martinez today is a good example, the way he carries his hands low and fights on reflexes.

I think Herol would have won rounds by frustrating and outlanding the 86/87 Hagler, but ultimately can he keep Marvin off him for 12-15 rounds? I think Marvin would have worn him down, and caught up to him later on.

Did you ever read Herol's autobiography? It's a great read mate. He constantly references that punch from Jackson, it really plays on his mind. I haven't seen the Mccallum-Graham fight, I'll have to look it up and let you know. Herol didn't seem bothered about it, he admits it could have gone either way.

He talks about the exhibitions he used to do, where people would line up and try to land something on him! He was very slick

High risk, and Marvin had already beaten Tommy. So I don't blame him. I think Tommy might have stopped him or cuts, or frustrated him by being negative and clinching. Though there's always the chance that if Marvin lands the right shot he'll knock Tommy out

Thanks for typing all of that up, I enjoyed reading it. I agree that the Brendan Ingle deserves a lot of credit for bringing through Naz. He spent hours watching Herol as well. Did you see the story of how Brendan was on a bus, and saw Naz fighting off 3 lads at once, so he got off the bus, and told Naz to come down to the gym, that's where it started.

The question is if Naz had stuck with Brendan throughout, would he have been good enough to beat the elites like Barrerra, Morales and JMM? He would he have done against Pacquiao? or Mayweather?

I think it's going to be pretty one sided. Chavez walks forward and is happy to accept punches, that's suicide against a mover and counter puncher like Sergio. It's going to be like Calzaghe-Lacy in my opinion.

Yeah a younger version of Oscar would have pushed Floyd all the way. He had the style and the attributes, jab, handspeed, skills and footwork. Floyd would have to come out of his defensive shell, and take the fight to Oscar at some point. It would have been a very close fight. I still think Floyd's win over Oscar is good, but Oscar was a different fighter 8 years ago.

The rematch wouldn't have proved much, Oscar got progressively worse, he looked poor against Steve Forbes.

 

I agree shane was well past it. Margarito was never that good in the first place!

I still give Floyd credit, because Shane was seen as a serious threat, and the number 1 WW when Floyd faced him.

I think the testing only became an issue when Pacquiao refused it, and made an issue of it. I don't see what's so hard about random blood and urine tests? They aren't particularly time consuming, Mosley, Ortiz and Cotto didn't complain about it at all. But I see what you mean, it came out of nowhere and Floyd only brought it up when a fight with Pacquiao came up.

I really thought Pacquaio could beat Floyd back in '09, he was a beast, Pac is an ATG for me.

Yeah the Mayweather's are a joke! Floyd trash talks fighters he feels threatened by, and it's the same with Pacquiao.

I see what you mean, but I still think Haye deserves credit for taking on guys that weigh as much as 100 pounds more than him. Also, Haye spent most of his career at CW, where he would have been used to fighting guys his own size. I don't think he gets the credit he deserves for taking Klitschko and Valuev in Germany. He has always made the big fights and travelled

 

Floyd is the one on 'Roids. It's so obvious it's unreal.

 

I'm not sure, to be honest I don't think he could fight that many quality fighters and stay undefeated, no fighter in history could. Roy was only human, and he'd be bound to have an off night and get beat.

Roy was a great fighter, but after Toney I have to criticise his career choices, for me he took the path of making the most money for taking the least risks. Darius fought Hill to unify the division, and instead of fighting Darius he fought the loser in Hill, how can he expect great credit for that win?

Some of Joe's ranking is down to him, I agree. However, if the likes of Hopkins, Collins, Echols, Tate, Ottke hadn't pulled out of and avoided fights with Joe, his ranking would have been a lot better, and that's not his fault.

It works both ways though, the win over Kessler was a big win, going up to LHW earlier meant he would have missed that fight?

Roy didn't challenge himself for years after the Toney fight, that's my issue. He had the ability to beat the fighters listed,

I don't see why it was pointless? Hopkins was one of the biggest names in the sport. Fighting him would have made Joe huge in the US, and it would have earned him more money than facing a LHW contender.


I'll continue this post later when I have time.

Thanks for a great debate mate :good


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None of the fighters that Roy missed could have been a rival like, Frazier, Foreman, the fab four etc. Toney was his rival, because he was considered the 2nd best fighter in the world at the time, and he was undefeated and only a year older. Benn, Eubank, and Collins etc, would more than likely have been just one off fights. The fab four were all as good as each other, that's why they had great fights, and were great rivals. They were all as great as each other, and were of similar age. I don't think the guys that Roy missed were as good has he was, and unless they'd have beaten him the first time (which I don't think any of them would have) then obviously they wouldn't have been any need for a rematch or a trilogy.

But as we've discussed numerous times, there were reasons why most of those fights didn't come off. Some of those fights were missed, but then he went on to fight better fighters. He missed Collins, but then fought the guy who'd beaten him to unify the title. If Roy had've fought Collins, but then ducked Reggie, people would have gone mad. That's just one example. We know Eubank didn't want to go to the U.S. and Benn faded very quickly after his fight with Gerald, losing to Collins and Mallinga etc.

DM wouldn't go to the U.S. Roy had 7 belts, DM had one. Roy had the WBA, WBC and the IBF. DM only had the WBO, that again, wasn't well respected. He turned down $5M to go and fight Roy. There's no way Roy was going to Germany in 2001. The judging was famous for being terrible.

Regarding rematches and trilogies, I watched a documentary on Roy the other month and it was bizarre. I think it was Colin Hart or Jeff Powell, said that Roy was great, but he'd never been in a trilogy like Ali etc. (This was from around 2000, before Tarver.) But he said it as though it was a criticism. Ha! I couldn't believe it. Fighters obviously only need trilogies, if they get beat in the first place, and then they win the rematch, or have a very close first fight, and the opponent wins the rematch, and then there's a call for a third fight. But how can you criticize someone for not being involved an a trilogy? It's absolute madness!

Regarding Roy's ranking, I stand by my point, that if he'd have beaten all the guys he missed, including Joe earlier, he still wouldn't be ranked much higher than he is. He still wouldn't be up there with the fab four, because they fought in a stronger era. But fighters should be ranked on their abilities as much as there resumes. I think they're both as important as each other.

I think Roy gets treated harshly when being ranked. I think there's lots of fighters that are ranked higher than him, that weren't on his level, ability wise.

It's been great bebating with you.

Regards, Loudon.[/QUOTE]

 

Everyone ranks Roy highly for ability.

Fact is there are plenty of able fighters with better resumes.