ROY jones JR what happend

So who in your opinion in Roy's era was consistently beating better opposition than Roy in a more dominating fashion?:huh

Yes opposition does matter, and Roy really when you dig down, actually beat good opposition, and when you add in the physical gifts on top of that and the dominance, he was p4p #1

Are you really saying Roy Jones was unjustly P4P 1?

And you also sound really stupid even bringing Zab Judah into an argument regarding Jones' greatness.

 

Likewise.
However, Trinidad was knocked down what 5 times w/Roy. He Roy was able to knock him down 5 times he should of been able to ko him. But he was afraid fo getting caught w/something in return so he played safety first.
You can't have it both ways. A fighter can't move up to a division and say,"oh no I can't fight you you are too big". If a fighter has that attitude then he should not move up in weight at all. Once you enter a division, and make that weight then no one should be excluded from being considered an opponent. You are in the division hence you are capable of fighting everyone in that division.

You know what would fo satisfied me if Roy stayed at heavyweight. Fighting Ruiz is fine, but he should of moved on to fight Byrd, then Lewis. Even if he would of lost to Lewis, then I would call him a great fighter. Why because he dared to be great by taking on the biggest challenges, not the safest. Your just happy w/Roy fighting fighters he knows he can beat and thats not good enough for me.

 

Not too many fighters fight someone they know they can't beat, all fighters take the smartest risks to a certain extent.

Hell Pac does it and gets praised, Roy does it and people call him a cherry picker. Its bull****.

Btw, Roy did express some interest in a fight with Lewis, I believe he asked Lewis and Lewis said he was gonna retire.

 

Likewise.
However, Trinidad was knocked down what 5 times w/Roy. If Roy was able to knock him down 5 times he should of been able to ko him. But he was afraid of getting caught w/something in return so he played safety first.
You can't have it both ways. A fighter can't move up to a division and say,"oh no I can't fight you you are too big". If a fighter has that attitude then he should not move up in weight at all. Once you enter a division, and make that weight then no one should be excluded from being considered an opponent. You are in the division hence you are capable of fighting everyone in that division.

You know what would of satisfied me if Roy stayed at heavyweight. Fighting Ruiz is fine, but he should of moved on to fight Byrd, then Lewis. Even if he would of lost to Lewis, then I would call him a great fighter. Why because he dared to be great by taking on the biggest challenges, not the safest. Your just happy w/Roy fighting fighters he knows he can beat and thats not good enough for me. Fighters who think they are the greatest of all time should be scrutinizedy, because being one of the greatest of all time invites scrutiny.

 

These losses don't really count, everyone knows Jones is wayyy passed it and I don't expect for anyone to hold this loss against his legacy

 

Whens the last time you heard a fighter say" I'M MOVING UP IN WEIGHT TO FIGHT THE VERY 4,5, 6TH BEST FIGHTERS OUT THERE". You move up in weight to take on the very best of the division. Billy Conn had the balls to move up and take on Joe Louis, he even fought Louis's type of fight. He may have lost but he gave Louis hell. Now whats more admirable Conn taking on Louis or Jones taking on Ruiz?

 

Your the stupid one if you think I was comparing Zudah Jones. I was making a comment on the criteria of p4p fighters. Judah was an example of giving a fighter too muc credit based on his physical skills alone and not based on who he has fought and beaten.

Do I think Jones wasthe best p4p fighter during his career at a time yes, when he beat Toney, after that no. There were fighters out there who fought and beat better competition than he did.

 

You more or less did compare Judah to Jones, you used Judah as an example of a fighter that was judged on skill alone and not quality of opposition beaten, the same thing you were and are saying about Jones.

There were fighters that overtook Jones for short periods of time, but they all lost, rising Jones back to the top again. De La Hoya, Mosley, Trinidad. After Jones fought Toney he even moved up yet another division and more or less cleaned it out save DM, another criteria which P4P is judged on, the fighters ability to move up in weight and dominate.

Did you not have Jones at number 1 after beating Ruiz? Who in your mind was beating better competition at that time period?

 

I believe the opposite. I believe most fighters want to fight the best, including fighting those fighters who have a chance of beating them. I trhink fighters who are risk aversive are the clear minority. Some fighters clearly take on challenges that are less risky than others. Some fighters do it there whole career (Kosta T.) some fighters do it only after they move up to a certain weight class (PBF, P. Whitaker) some fighters do it after they reach a certain age (this is the only time I think its ok to be risk aversive).

All the best fighters I can think of fought others that had a clear chance of beating them or had some chance of beating them. Chavez fought Whitaker it was clear Whitaker could beat Chavez. DLH fought Trinidad, toss up fight. I can go on and on. I can name only a handful of fighters ,who proclaim how great they are, who avoided difficult fighters.

PBF- once he moved up to 140 and above became risk aversive.
Pernell Whitaker- once he moved up to 147 and above he cherry picked opp.
RJ- after he moved up to light heavy and beyond he cherry picked.
Calzaghe- refused to fight alot of fighters, because he thought most fighters did not belong in the ring with him.
I can't think of too many more (although there are a few more, but don't want to list them all) who cherry picked.

RJ never showed any real interest in fighting Lewis. Never, not once.
Thats just insane to say Manny Paq cherry picks his opponents. Do you call fighting Barerra, Marquez, Morales a combined total of 7 times cherry picking? Do you call beating the best 140lb champion, Hatton, cherry picking, Coto and Clottey, cherry picking?? Thats just blatantly false and nuts! If anything clottey was a high risk, small reward.

 

No Iwas not compariing there careers to eachother. I was talkinga bout p4p rankings and how they are done inappropriately and I gave judah as an example.

No I did not have Jones p4p 1, if he would of moved up and fought the legit heavyweight champ then I would of considered him p4p.

What Toney did in the heavyweight division was much more impressive than Jones defeat of Ruiz

 

After I saw an interesting interview of Roach stating the reasons they fought Hatton, Cotto, De La Hoya, it sure as hell was not because Pac thought he was fighting the best... Made me raise my eyebrows.

Do you think Oscar thought he couldn't beat Trinidad?
Do you think Chavez thought he couldn't beat Whitaker?

Comparing Oscar fighting Trinidad, and Chavez fighting Whitaker to Jones fighting Lennox Lewis is insane, totally different.

And Ruiz could beat Jones to, to say that was not a risk is crazy as well. Especially with the size difference, all it would take is one really good shot.

 

thats exactly it well put pal:good

 

This is bull****...

Who did you have at number 1 then?

a former Jr Middleweight, beating a heavyweight that still outweighed him by 30 pounds is pound for pound all the way.

Who did something more impressive than that at that time to be number 1?? im curious.

 

I am not comparing them. If you notice the Lewis response was based on what you claimed that Jones wanted to fight Lewis. It had nothing to do with Tito-DLH or Chavez-Whit. Thats why it was a seperate paragraph.

Regarding what Oscar or Chavez thought, who knows what goes on in anothers mind. But we can give an educated guess that there could of been some doubt in their minds, they would not be human if they did not have doubt. The public, betting lines, analysts could not be sure who would win .I recall DLH's response to fighting Ike he actually said that he could possibly lose that fight. I recall nearly everyone, betting lines, etc. picked Jones to beat Ruiz.

Freddie Roach is just talking about Paq's opponents weaknesses, not the same as cherry picking. Remember everyone said Paq taking on DLH was nuts because he was too small.

 

We were clearly talking about Lewis, you were criticizing Jones for fighting Ruiz and not Lewis, then praising Oscar for fighting Trinidad... Certainly on topic.

Freddie Roach did not talk about their weaknesses, he flat said they were not the fighters they used to be... Also, in selecting Cotto over Mosley, which at the time Mosley was the man. Roach simply said "Cotto isn't Mosley"

Also according to Jones, at a fight, I am not sure which one, he asked Lewis if he wanted to fight. Jones said it so you never know how true it is.