Imagine if Gracie stuck around the MMA scene and competed in none title fights against the following men any time between 96 and 2006 (whichever suits the opponent best) Pat Miletich Carlos Newton Hayato Sakurai Jake Shields Kazushi Sakuraba BJ Penn GSP. Let's say they're all 3 round fights (we saw the title fight against Hughes in real life) during this ten year period. Does Gracie fare well against these men or was his strict BJJ training a hindrance against the more rounded MMA fighters? I've literally just watched Gracie Vs Hughes and am not doubting my ridiculously lofty ranking of him so help me make my mind up fellow MMA enthusiasts.
Either 3-4 or 4-3... Subs Newton, Subs Miletich, Subs Sakurai. Loses a wide decision to GSP, loses a close decision to Sakuraba, loses a decision to BJ Penn, loses a controversial SD to Shields.
So in 2006 he's still one of the best ever iyo? I agree with those choices, on the fence with shields. At this point it would be by far Shields best win, although Shields did go on to beat Henderson, Maia and Woodley.
The latter two being dubious to say the least. Shields was able to make it the kind of fight he wanted them to be, but a case be made for either winning. In any case with those being extremely negative performances it's hard to give Shields complete credit, but he does get some. Negative or not that's not an easy thing to do.
Lay and pray is the worst scoring criteria in the UFC. I preferred Pride which had more emphasis on submission attempts and finishing stronger.
In those cases it was more stalling against the cage and really negative kickboxing on his part. Remember both fights being a nightmare to score.
I haven't watched either yet, I just think negative wrestling has an unfair advantage in UFC that it didn't have in Pride. Although I'm biased towards BJJ cos it's my sport lol.
Less so lately fortunately. http://mmadecisions.com/decision/4290/Jake-Shields-vs-Tyron-Woodley http://mmadecisions.com/decision/4563/Jake-Shields-vs-Demian-Maia Here's some perspective of how difficult those were to score without watching the fights themselves. Woodley fight was a little more controversial but not an outright robbery...
I agree with all of these except Sakuraba. I believe he was doing well early against Sak and could probably out point him over 3 rounds. I know he beat him by decision in their rematch but I can't take that win too seriously. Look at Royce in that one. This content is protected Yes, he failed the post fight drug test.
I wouldn't call his Jiu Jitsu unqualified. He and is family have a self defense based style of Jiu Jitsu. A lot of what works in sport specific BJJ wouldn't work if you could strike during the match. There are people, like Wallid Ismail, that can beat Royce in a grappling only competition that may or may not be able to beat him under different circumstances. Not many can take this philosophy into sport BJJ competition and rise to the top. Kron Gracie is one of the exceptions. Kron Gracie: “The berimbolo is a mess, it’s ****, a way to cheat in order to score points. The athlete stands in a very bad position, and if was MMA, he would take a big punch to the face and it would mess him up. It is a position that, like 50-50, maybe one time or another you should train it, find that it is also part of Jiu-Jitsu … When spending more time on it, you see that it does not work, people will see that they lost much time training the wrong way. There are people winning titles with it, but it is not pretty Jiu-Jitsu, that you want to teach your child. I am against it, however, I am not God to say what people should or should not do. I’m happy with my way of fighting. If people want to do like me, great. If they want to do berimbolo, do the berimbolo ” http://www.bjjee.com/interview/kron-gracie-the-berimbolo-is-sht-its-just-for-scoring-points/ This content is protected Royce trained primarily with his immediate family for the first few UFCs. Particularly his brother, Relson, as Relson was known for having a style suited for the limited rules of the early UFC format. There are many that feel like Royce was not as sharp later in his career because he trained at his own academy. Not that Royce forgot everything that he learned but he was no longer training with people on his level or higher. People that could push him. At Royce's school, he was the best practitioner by far and grew lazy in his technique. Relson had a different view on Royce vs Hughes: http://www.bjjee.com/bjj-news/relso...at-vs-hughes-royce-disrespected-helio-gracie/ “I think he and Renzo have forgotten Jiu-Jitsu a bit … Nowadays, you go in the gym and see them fighting Muay Thai, kicking etc. I’ll never use this in my life to fight someone. Helio Gracie would not like that, but Royce trains these things. And Royce lost to Hughes because he changed his style. If he had fought Jiu-Jitsu … I think Royce disrespected my father. I have no more communication with Royce since then. I do not talk to him anymore. It affected me a lot. He took a beating because he was fighting Muay Thai. If he had walked backwards using the stomp, he would had caught Matt Hugues. If he had done it earlier in the UFC … But he changed his coach. Put me out. He never lost with me, ” “Royce was the most amateur member of the family to fight in the UFC. If someone was to put in there to kick butt it would have been Rickson, me, or anyone who was more of brawler than Royce. Royce was never in a street fight as a boy. He never won a gold medal in Jiu-Jitsu. So, he was the most inexperienced fighter in the world. Royce has fingers like a pianist. But he followed Helio Gracie’s plan, and it paid off. On the day that he began to change, it was over for him” “I think he and Renzo have forgotten Jiu-Jitsu a bit … Nowadays, you go in the gym and see them fighting Muay Thai, kicking etc. I’ll never use this in my life to fight someone. Helio Gracie would not like that, but Royce trains these things. And Royce lost to Hughes because he changed his style. If he had fought Jiu-Jitsu … I think Royce disrespected my father. I have no more communication with Royce since then. I do not talk to him anymore. It affected me a lot. He took a beating because he was fighting Muay Thai. If he had walked backwards using the stomp, he would had caught Matt Hugues. If he had done it earlier in the UFC … But he changed his coach. Put me out. He never lost with me, ” “Royce was the most amateur member of the family to fight in the UFC. If someone was to put in there to kick butt it would have been Rickson, me, or anyone who was more of brawler than Royce. Royce was never in a street fight as a boy. He never won a gold medal in Jiu-Jitsu. So, he was the most inexperienced fighter in the world. Royce has fingers like a pianist. But he followed Helio Gracie’s plan, and it paid off. On the day that he began to change, it was over for him”[/QUOTE]
I meant unqualified in a formal way because the sport wasn't as globally recognised back then, like now we have the mundials etc. I'm still not sold on Rickson though tbh.
The issue with the Saku fight is although Royce took the first couple of rounds, Sakuraba was deliberately pacing himself throwing hard leg kicks to fight over a long distance. What is telling though is that Sakuraba didn't want to grapple with Gracie. I think it would have been different if Gracie didn't wear his gi. That being said Sakuraba did beat him so deserves all the credit in the world.
