Ruslan Chagaev vs the 1950s

Does it not strike you as rather strange Suzie, that Mendoza makes such a big deal about how many heavyweights over 200lbs Moore fought?
When you consider that he is the biggest booster of Jim Jeffries in the known world,and Jeffries fought exactly 2 , Ruhlin and Johnson.
Moore beat several really fine heavyweights and at a time he was himself at an advanced age for a boxer, to compare Moore to Chagaev is like comparing your favourite beer to pond water.imo

 

He does have a typical boxer's body, but he's not ripped like, say, a Tyson. The initial point was that Chagaev wouldn't be strong because he didn't look that ripped, so i just brought up Ali as an example of being strong but not ripped.

Yeah well, that's because you've never seen Chagaev in the ring with a 190lbs heavyweight who trains for endurance and stamina. Trust me, the strength difference will be significant.

 

Where did i say Ali was not a great athlete?

 

I see your point then .
I fought a big lump many , many years ago 6' 3'',around 230lbs he was tubby and not at all ripped, he not only absorbed my best punches without visible effect, he threw me around like a doll, defeinitely not ripped but very strong,fortunately he cut easily ,and, didnt know much about fighting, otherwise I wouldnt be sitting here boring you.:good

 

I think its a question of size and quality of skills. Did Moore fight anyone as skilled and heavy as Chagaev? No, he did not.

What were the records of the 200-210 pound men when Moore fought them. Were they un-defeated? No. Did they lose to lesser fighters? Yes.

These are the point I have been making. Another point I have is, there really is not that much of a difference between say 190 and 210, but there is a significant difference between 190 and say 225-230.

 

They were not undefeated because they were fighting,1 regularly 2 ranked heavyweights.
I hope Chagaev puts up a good fight ,but honestly I'm at a loss as to why you think so much of him,he looks very ordinary to me ,reasonable skills ,average in most things ,but he has beaten no one I would class as very good let alone great.

I would be very careful about pushing the train of thought that there is a very significant difference between 190lbs and 225/ 230 lbs, that doesnt exactly boost the reputation of your idol Jeffries does it ? Considering his best wins were over.
A 167 lbs Fitz Jeff 206lbs weight advantage 42lbs
A 172lbs Fitz Jeff 219lbs ---------------- 37lbs
A 183lbs Sharkey Jeff 215lbs ______________ 32lbs
A 188lbs Corbett Jeff 218 lbs ______________ 30lbs
A 190lbs Corbett Jeff 220lbs______________ 30lbs


Biggest weight advantage 42lbs against Fitz
Smallest weight advantage 30 lbs against Corbett
[I wont mention age as it isnt relevant here]

 

You are missing my point. Being 210 pounds alone doesn't make you great, and a skilled 180 pound can can in fact beat him. This is what happened with all of Archie Moore's " big opponents "

Allow me to offer a few examples to illustrate my points by examining the records of 200+ pound fighters records before and after then fought Archie Moore.

1 ) Big Bob Baker. About 210 pounds

-Was Ko'd by a skinny 184 pound Clarance Henry in 8
- Lost on points to a journeyman in Graham who was 27-12-2.
- Ko'd in 1 round by a 180.5 pound Bob Satterfield
- Lost on points again to Clarance Henry.

Then he meet Archie Moore and was Ko'd. Leading up to the Moore fight
Baker lost two of his last three fights. Baker's Ko percentage is under 30%. If you follow his career, he pretty much lost to the top guys under 200 pounds. So how is this guy any good? Such a fighter could only be ranked in a weak era of heavyweight boxing.

2 ) James Parker around 205-210 pounds

- Lost to a 4-2 no name.
- KO'd in 2 to a 174 pound Buceoroni
- Ko'd in 4 by 185.5 pound Reynolds
- Lost on points to a journeyman 30-13-2 fighter in Thrumond
- Lost on points to Valdes
- Drew to a with Walls
- Drew to a 9-0 fighter.

Then was Ko'd by Moore and finished his career being Ko'd in 1 by Chavalo.

If Parker was ranked in the 50's its because the era lacked talent. He has no name wins, and would not be ranked in the top ten today.

3 ) Nino Valdes, about 210 pounds.

-Had a 32-9-3 record leading up to the fight with Moore, which means he had 12 bad results. This is a journeyman''s record.

-Ko'd in 3 rounds by a 1-1 fighter
-Ko'd in 8 by a 3-4 fighter!
- Lost on points to a 20-3 fighter. no shame here.
- Ko'd in 4 by an 11-13 fighter.
- Lost on points to a 9-1 fighter.
- Lost to a much smaller Harold Johnson.

Then he lost to Moore, and lost back to back again. Total losing streak 4 fights in a row, then Valdes turned it around by beating a past his prime Ezzard Charles, and pretty much vaulted up to the #1 spot despite too many black marks on his record to mention.

Moore's first win over Valdes should wasn't that impressive. Who did Valdes beat leading up to his first match with Moore? I see a guy who failed to win a big match, and was Ko'd three times by no names, and out pointed by no names. I am not too impressed with this win.

>>>Lets fast forward to the modern era. Chagaev was moved much quicker as a professional, never was Ko'd multiple times or lost multiple times on points to journeyman. In fact, he is un-defeated and look much better on film.

To compare Chagaev to these fringe contenders fighters the 50's who were around 210 pounds suggest ignorance, or in some cases bias.

 

Fair enough, but possessing the physique of a body builder is not necessarily the ideal look for a truly athletic person. Men like Ali and Louis were very well toned and evenly balanced.. While they both have a fair amount of muscle tone, they aren't exactly hulks, but this shouldn't really be the goal of a truly good athlete.

 

I agree. I will add that some people just have a natural talent/aptitude to look ripped while others don't, from the same conditioning. For instance, guys like Douglas, Quarry, Ibragimov, even when in top-shape and when able to fight actively throughout the entire fight, looked like your average bus driver. Then you have guys like Holyfield, Weaver, Norton, etc, who look more muscular but have comparably stamina. Guys like Ali, Frazier and Marciano are a bit in between (in terms of physique), but obviously have every bit as much endurance.

Yep, tubby types are obviously limited in movement, flexibility and punch output, but strong they are. In fact, if you look at strongman competitions, they are usually the "buff" type of guys, certainly built but with a good amount of flap as well. Boxers of that type can have fast hands though, but that's also because of what i call the T-rex effect.

 

atsch

Jesus.

 

And I love how you assume things, and are often wrong when you call people out. Get ready to step on your 10th rake this year. Henry was skinny. He was 6'1 his best weight was around 185 pounds.

Here is a link to his page and photo. Take note he is reefed to as a smallish fighter. Henry's arms and neck look rather slim to me on the below link. He does not look ripped to shreads. If anything he looks like he could use a good meal or two

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/henry-clarence.htm

I do think Henry was among the better heavies in the 1950's. Henry's best win is a points win over Bivins ( Bivins also knocked him out ), though 17 different fighters defeated Bivins, so the win here is hardly unique. Bivins also Ko'd Henry.

Henry is on film, and other photos of him can be viewed. I have seen other photos of him before.

The best fighters Henry fought were Moore, Bivins, Harold Johnson, and Huricane Jackson. Henry's ring record here is 1 win, 4 looses.

Henry was good enough to beat fringe cotneder types--fighters with journyeman records that were ranked in the era due to lack of depth, but that is about it. Don't try to make him out into something he's not.

 

No, but he fought Rocky Marciano who is much more skilled than Chagaev, a heavier hitter, faster, and is smaller(therefore a harder target to hit), and had MUCH MUCH better stamina, so what difference does it make if Moore fought a guy as heavy as Chagaev?

The way Chagaev fights, his style, and his lack of stamina would fall right into Moore's hands because Chagaev would have no choice, but to come foward and he would be consistantly hit with counters, counters that were able to turn Marciano's nose to mush.

Chagaev just isn't in the same league as these guys, and if you think otherwise, prepare to be shocked when Klitschko handles him easily.

 

Some have credited Chagaev as having " an iron chin. " While I am not arguing differently, I am not sure that we have seen this claim proven to any great degree. His best opponents in Valuev, Ruiz, and a few others are not particularly powerful nor aggressive hitters. Wladimir Virchis can bang to some degree, but his workrate is very low, is not technically sound as a puncher and has not Ko'd very many quality opponents. Chagaev's chin should get a pretty good test this weekend, unless of course Wlad decides to play it safe and keep Ruslan on the tip of his jab all night long - probably the most likely scenario.....