Ruslan Chagaev vs the 1950s

Given that I had not yet seen the amateur in question in a pro ring, and he was going in with a former world champion? Not necessarily.

In his pro debut? That's a rough bet, and incidentally neither of those men are fighting anywhere near as actively as charles was, and are in fact older..

He was champion in the early 50's, still competitive through the mid 50's, and was still fighting very actively against good heavyweights in the late 50's, albeit mostly losing efforts...

Really? He was born in October of 1967 and turned pro in June of 1991.. Do the math....He was 26 years old.... Savon was in his early 30's and STILL fighting in the amatuers.. Where are you going with this?

Well, he beat better fighters in the amateurs than Savon did, ie. Lewis, Bowe, Biggs, Stevenson, and what's more was undefeated in his first 24 pro fights.. At what point did Savon attempt to " make his mark " as pro?

While Savon fought during an amatuer period that is typically considered as less competitive than the late 80's were... And what does the 50's having less talent have to do with a debuting fighter chosing Ezzard freakin' Charles as his very first pro opponent?

Of course not, he called it quits after getting his ass thoroughly kicked by a slew of journeyman and prospects, the same as charles did... The only small difference is that Gonzalez never had the claim to being a heavyweight champion as well as one of the p4p greatest fighters of all time..

Are we talking about the same "peak" bowe who had over 30 pro fights, was a recent world champion and in the prime of his career? Or are we talking about the debuting version in his very first fight ever? You seem to switching around your angles here.. Not sure where you're coming from..

At the tale end of the decade, yes.. But from 1950-1955 ( half the entire decade ), he was consistantly a top 3-4 heavyweight, and for the early part of the 50's was even the heavyweight champion of the world... To respond to your statement, he was definately a force, no matter how you slice it....

Yes, but journeyman have beaten debuting fighters who had great records in the amatuers.

I wouldn't...

Can you prove this... I sure as hell can prove that Ezzard could still go 10 rounds in the late 50's, and with PROVEN FIGHTERS...
Now I ask you to answer the question. Would you pick Savon from 1986-2000 over Bowe and Morrer in 2008? I would.

Charles...

I know what you're trying to say, but I simply don't agree.. And frankly, I think it all ties in with your never ending position that today's era was vastly better than the 1950's were.. While I am not going to dive into an entirely new argument, I will say that whatever the truth is, even if today is stronger, it doesn't bolster a great argument for a dubuting fighter beating a veteran former champ.....

 

"Savon would likely KO Charles from 1956 to 1960"

That wouldn't prove anything much. Charles was fading badly after 1956. He was stopped by Donnie Fleeman in 1958 and George Logan in 1959. He lost in 1959 to Alvin Green. If Felix Savon could beat Alvin Green--so what.

Charles simply was not a top man in the last half of the 1950's.

He is not alone by the way in going backward. You could make the same argument about Kid Gavilan, or even Sugar Ray Robinson. Gavilan from the Bobo Olson bout in 1954 through 1958 was 10-17-1. That is pretty bad. I guess you are maintaining that the conclusion we should draw from this is that Gavilan was not even a journeyman and that any amateur champion could turn pro and in his first fight handle the Gavilan of 1952? This is a very poor argument. I would say beyond nonsense.
Robinson--well, by 1965 he was losing pretty consistently to fellows like Memo Aryon and Ferd Hernandez. He was a journeyman. I guess that proves that the Robinson of 1955 to 1958 was nothing more than a journeyman? Gavilan lost 30 fights in his career. Robinson 19. Charles 25. Ike Williams 24. Henry Armstrong 21. All journeymen, I suppose.

"I'll take Felix Savon over Bowe or Moorer"

Okay, but amateur records don't necessarily mean diddly in the pros, as Olympic champs Ed Sanders and Pete Rademacher found out in the fifties. Sanders was killed by a fighter you would rank a journeyman.

"I am not saying Savon would have had a better professional career" (than Ezzard Charles)

Well, I hope not, as that sort of statement is in the "if elephants had wings they could fly" level of fantasy.

 

We agree that Chalres was no where near good in the 2nd half of the 1950's.

Whether an Olympic gold medal winner at heavyweight is a force as a professional is the question with Savon. Lately top amateur records do mean quite a bit for professional heavyweights.

It is best to look at the star amateurs of Savon's time since they were clearly better than Rademacher and Sanders!

Frazier 1964, Foreman 1968, Lewis 1988, and Klitschko 1996 all went to form gold medal winner at heavyweight/supper heavyweight #1 as professionals. The only real bust was Harrison in 2000. Bowe won silver, and Bowe went to #1 for a while too. Mercer won gold in 1988, and he had a very good career.

I did not include 1984 since most of the best fighters were not at the games.

The Cubans won gold at either heavy or super heavy in 1972- 1976- 1980 ( Stevenson ) 1992 ( Blando, Savon ), and 1996- 2000 ( Savon ) we can say for sure if they would have reached #1 as a professionals since they were not allowed to turn professional. Yet the evidence shows most former gold medal winners in the Olympics at heavy or super heavy that turned professional did reach #1 in most cases.

Therefore if Savon went professional I think he would have an excellent chance of being #1 at some point in his career, or at the very least a top 5 fighter in his prime. On physcial skills Savon dwarfs Charles. The Cuban was big, skilled, and could hit a ton.

 

1. Amateurs---It is in and out how an amateur will do in the pros. Rafael Inglesias (1948), Ed Sanders (1952), Pete Rademacher (1956), Franco De Piccoli (1956), Tyrell Biggs (1984), and Audley Harrison (2000) were largely flops. Frazier only won a gold medal because Mathis got hurt. Otherwise Mathis would have been the gold medal winner. He beat Frazier in the trials. Stevenson's amateur victims--Bobick, Tate, Simon--did not terrorize the pros. Tate did well for a while. Bobick less well, and Simon less well than that. It seems for every Foreman, Lewis, or Wlad Kllitschko, there are several flops.

2. I agree that Charles had slipped and was not that good by the late fifties. One doesn't have to speculate about some modern fighter jumping fifty years out of time to see that. He was losing often to men in his own time. What I don't understand is what your point is. If Charles could no longer beat the ordinary contenders of his day, what value is speculating on how Chagaev or even Savon would have done against such a faded Charles? Neither Charles nor Gavilan was a good fighter in 1958. Both were top fighters five years earlier. Happens.

 

All this talk about weather or not a man who never fought in the pros would beat a veteran champion, and for what? To manufacture an argument supporting the claim that Ruslan Chagaev would be a great fighter in the 1950's?

 

Klitschko 240

Chagaev 225

Chagaev is the lightest he has been for five years so he is obviously taking this verry seriously.

 

"he is obviously taking this very seriously"

He better.

 

Let's just hope that he shows up at his optimal best and fights like its the last thing that he'll ever do on this earth. If he comes in good form, and gives us that sort of effort, we may be in for a good fight, perhaps even an upset....

 

i'm actually getting kinda pumped for this fight. Let's hope it does not disappoint.

 

He would be in with a chance against most of the sub-championship-level guys, I suppose. We haven't seen a great deal of Chagaev in action against world class opposition just yet, so it is difficult to judge with any great deal of certainty. So far, Chagaev's performances against his more notable opposition (Valuev, Ruiz, Virchis) have been far from titillating, but he has done enough to edge out the win in each instance, and demonstrated a reasonably well-rounded (albeit less than spectacular) skillset in the process. I'll roughly estimate that if he fought each of these men once, he would manage around three to five wins.

We should have clearer insight into Chagaev's ability after the match tomorrow (or today, strictly speaking). If he should pull off the upset, particularly in impressive fashion, then his perceived chances against these historical figures will (not surprisingly) increase drastically as I see it. A routine unanimous decision or mid-to-late round stoppage loss (more or less the standard Klitschko fight these days, and what I am expecting) would leave my opinion unaltered, while a quick blow-out or otherwise embarrassing showing would lead me to lean more towards an unfavorable view of his chances against most any of these men.

By the way, I'm also excited to see this match- it is one of the best heavyweight meetings that has been made in a while, and is in some aspects actually more interesting than Klitschko-Haye would have been.

 

Both fighters are in their primes or very close to it. Both fighters are in top shape. The Ring Magazine will anoint the winner as Champion. There will be 60,000+ fans in attendance, which might be the high mark for attendance in this decade.

I can't wait. I also hope Chagaev doesn't get blown out. I get the hunch Wlad is going to put on on of his better performances. Tenured champs often find it difficult to get up for every fight. The last fight Wlad was interested in might have been the re-match with Brewster. I tend to doubt Wlad was looking forward to going through a camp to meet Rhaman, or Austin. I tend to believe Wlad was eager go into a camp to prepare to KO Haye, and prepared extra hard for this fight. Steward said he's never seen Wlad this good or focused.

My prediction is Chagaev does reasonably well, has a moment or two, but loses via mid to late round TKO as Wlad drills him with a right, and finishes him off. Chagaev has never been stopped in 100+ pro and amateur fights, so the TKO here will be rather unique.