Saad v Corbett 15rds?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Oct 1, 2020.


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  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I've seen Dubois and Joyce from ringside they were on the same bill,there's nothing between them for size.Dubois took some decent shots from Lartey and Gorman,there's been nothing to indicate he has chin problems.My pick is Dubois when they meet, but I would have preferred him to have had a stiffer run out than his last waste of time.
     
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2020
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2020
    #76
  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I've seen Dubois and Joyce from ringside they were on the same bill,there's nothing between them for size , Joyce is heavier .Dubois took some decent shots from Lartey and Gorman,there's been nothing to indicate he has chin problems.My pick is Dubois when they meet, but I would have preferred him to have had a stiffer run out than his last waste of time.
     
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2020
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2020
    #77
  3. Bukkake

    Bukkake Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yeah, they are obviously both pretty big guys.

    I'm not confident picking a winner in their match next month. I think Dubois may be slightly the bigger hitter - but if he doesn't end it fairly early, Joyce may grind him down with his constant pressure.
     
    Bukkake, Oct 6, 2020
    Bukkake, Oct 6, 2020
    #78
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I have done previously in some cases.

    I produced an entire thread on the different weights given for Fitzsimmons in the run up to the Corbett fight.

    I assumed after that, that nobody would trust any weight given for the era!
    Pretty poor?

    Sullivan was more than ready to be taken, and it was probably a good time to be a title challenger, but he was still the champion.

    Jackson was obviously outstanding, and would have made a good win on anybody's ledger.

    Killrain was a good contender.

    I can't see why anybody would question, that these wins give Corbett far more credibility above 175lbs, than somebody like Bob Foster has.
     
    janitor, Oct 6, 2020
    janitor, Oct 6, 2020
    #79
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Joyce has a porous defence but a very good engine,and has fought the better opposition by and large.
     
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2020
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2020
    #80
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Sullivan had not fought for nearly 5 years ,that why he was still champion.
    You keep mentioning Jackson seemingly oblivious of the fact that Corbett did not beat him.
    What are Kilrain's 3 best gloved wins?
     
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2020
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2020
    #81
  7. Devon

    Devon Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Because a while ago, I created a thread on Golovkin vs Corbett, it probably evolved from that
     
    Devon, Oct 6, 2020
    Devon, Oct 6, 2020
    #82
  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I am aware that Sullivan had not fought in three years, but he had still never been beaten in over a decade, and he had dominate everyone.

    That has to count for something.
     
    janitor, Oct 6, 2020
    janitor, Oct 6, 2020
    #83
  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    He didn't beat him, but he didn't lose to him either.

    Do you think that there was a better heavyweight at the time, and if so who?
    He has George Godfrey, Mike Clearey, Alf Greenfield, Frank Herald, Joe Lannon.

    Looks pretty solid to me!

    We can also take a closer look at some of his draws.
     
    janitor, Oct 6, 2020
    janitor, Oct 6, 2020
    #84
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I was referring to gloved contests.
    You can start by looking at the Clearey fight it was given as a draw, The police stopped the Herald fight .
    CBZ doesnt list the Greenfield fight, but if they did what does a win over a guy4-6-1 signify?
    He hadnt won a fight for 2 years.
    Godfrey was nearly38 years old ,just a few days short.







    Battery D Armory, Chicago
    N
    ND


    1885-03-02 Jack Burke 14 1 2








    Battery D Armory, Chicago
    L
    PTS


    1885-02-27 George Fryer debut


    Industrial Hall, Philadelphia
    D
    PTS


    1885-02-12 Jake Kilrain 12 0 6








    L
    PTS


    1885-01-12 John L Sullivan 32 0 0








    Institute Hall, Boston
    L
    PTS


    1884-11-18 John L Sullivan 31 0 0








    Madison Square Garden, New York
    L
    TD

    Draws are not wins. You say Sullivan hadnt been beat on over a decade knowing he hadn't had a gloved contest in nearly 5 years nor a LPR on in 3 years ! I haven't been beat in a fight for over 25 years ,I had my last one 17 years ago LOl
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2020
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2020
    #85
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Yes Corbett ko'd a 3 fight 20 years old Choynski and a 32 years old , 69 fight Choynski ko'd a 10 fight novice Johnson. Your point is?
     
    mcvey, Oct 7, 2020
    mcvey, Oct 7, 2020
    #86
  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Although the official verdict of the Clearey fight was a draw, ringside accounts suggest that Clearey was stopped, and that a draw was perhaps rendered due to the politics of the day.
    In those days, many title fights had to be billed as exhibitions for legal purposes. If the Police entered the ring, it was treated as being a technical knockout. The contract often stated that the win would be given to the fighter who was having the better of it in these circumstances.
    Jake Killrain defeated Greenfield a month after Sullivan did.

    Greenfield had been billed as the outstanding challenger for Sullivan's title, going into the fight.
    Killrain defeated Godfrey in gloved contests twice, once in 1883 in what I assume was Godfrey's prime, and again in 1891. While Godfrey was in his late 30s in 1891, he was coming off a stoppage win over Denver Ed Smith, who had just taken Peter Jackson the distance.

    Killrain has some other notable gloved fights.

    He fought a draw against Jack Burke, who most ringsiders seem to have thought that he had the better of.

    He defeated Jack Ashton, and Joe Lannon.

    In all I would say that Killrain was the best gloved contender of the late 1880s, before Jackson got established in America.
     
    janitor, Oct 7, 2020
    janitor, Oct 7, 2020
    #87
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Clearey has a nothing record and was a5'8" light heavy. Greenfield was an average fighter of his day and a middleweight.
    One of the wins you credit Godfrey with was interrupted by the police and given as a draw, as was the Burke fight.Burke was a 5'6"middleweight

    Denver Ed Smith never did much who did he beat ?
    Match ,Clearey,Burke,Ashton,Lannon ,Greenfield, against Saad Muhammad and tell me whom you would honestly pick?



    You're struggling here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
    mcvey, Oct 7, 2020
    mcvey, Oct 7, 2020
    #88
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Not really, these guys were the best contenders of the era, and a police stoppage was regarded as a win in those days.

    These were the men that Sullivan had built his reputation on, and the men who beat them.

    They were beaten by the same logic by which Sullivan beat them.

    If Killrain was not a top gloved fighter, then there was no such thing as a top gloved fighter back then!
     
    janitor, Oct 7, 2020
    janitor, Oct 7, 2020
    #89
  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    And what does a top gloved fighter of the 1880's and 1890s mean in terms of quality today?
    Ashton
    Clearey
    Burke
    Lannon
    Greenfield
    Five men with a total of 69 fights , when they fought Kilrain,giving them an average of 13.8 fights each , such men would be classed as novices today.
    Saad had 68 fights on his own!
    19 against the following
    Contehx2
    M Johnson x2
    Johnson
    Parlov x2
    Qawi x2
    Camel x2
    Kates
    Muhammad
    Lopez x2
    Douglas
    Show 19 comparable opponents of the 5 you think were good opposition for Kilrain?
    Now would you like to answer my question?
    Clearey
    Lannon
    Ashton
    Burke
    Greenfield
    Do you pick any of them to beat Saad?
    YES?
    NO?
    We are not discussing Sullivan's resume but rather Corbett's.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
    mcvey, Oct 8, 2020
    mcvey, Oct 8, 2020
    #90
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