Salvador Sanchez KO2 Harry Greb

You and Manassa seemed to be going at it to me.

But then, that might be a function of the difficulty in distinguishing "tone" over the internet.

 

You said you were finished debating. I understand using smilies can be annoying to some, I've chosen to do it here because I can't stand people who delude themselves into believe this nonsense. Calling you a pantywaist was a joke, don't take it personal. Afterall, your friend cross_trainer said this is just a debate and isn't going to change anyones life and he's absolutely right.

What are you getting so heated and making this personal for? You're not impressed. Who said you were suppose to be? From the looks of it Amsterdam made me sound like I was going to come in here, change everyone's mind and everyone would worship me. I knew I wouldn't change anyones mind in here because guys like you aren't neutral. I told Amsterdam this when he started telling me over MSN what you guys believe on this subject. I proved my point by linking you to footage of both men, where clearly wheter or not Greb was serious he has vastly inferior technique that Tommy Hearns. You are a radical worshipper of these old fighters. Look at your first sentence here. It isn't true, yet you believe it. You haven't answered my question yet when it is a PERFECT example to show who is correct. What you want to do is continue to ***** about who is confused and tell yourself you didn't take this personal.

Anything you say from here on out will be an answer to my question or I will not reply to you so you don't get upset over this watercooler argument.

 

Here's a good way to think about it: Are you familiar with the grip-fighting in Judo and playing for position with the arms in wrestling? The arms are somewhat extended, and they fence with the hands for position to try to get a good hold on their opponent. Old-time boxing was a mix of pugilism and Greco-Roman wrestling (but with trips added). What they're doing is a combination of normal boxing and grip-fighting. They have the arms extended to be able to play for position ready to grab the guy or intercept his punch.

 

I am willing to listen, as I said before. I'm sorry that the Amsterdam-predicted flurry of worshippers did not materialize, but I am certainly willing to change my views on Greb.

Now, you have put forth several flaws you see in his style, but that is only the first step. If you want to condemn an entire era as primitive, you'll have to have some experience with the technique, as I previously mentioned. You need to show that it wasn't workable and was simply a function of imperfect understanding of boxing--and to do that, you need to research and understand it first.

 

Magnum: re the really old technique, there are several articles on it in the "Bareknuckle Boxing Resources" thread that I posted quite a bit ago.

 

I'm assuming this goes back to the glove issue. Do you think ti would be possible to slip the bad punches thrown by older fighters? Think about James Toney for example, he has a head like a bucket and is often overweight, yet he manages to repeatedly slip much sharper, faster and powerful punches by 2". Blocking with your hands to protect your head is essential in today's game, but why wouldn't Toney be able to slip punch after punch froma guy who falls off balance after every shot and never correctly repositions himself?

I realize this. I might have mistaken you for one of the guys who says fighters fromt he 1930's would win against modern day fighters due to their superior toughness and determination. Why would this guys be so bothered by getting hit in the hand while blcokign a punch if they could walk through a fighter with laser, pinpoint punches using all of the leverage humanly possible when delivering a punch while constantly maintaining positioning and seeing everything coming from the 1930's fighter? Forgive me if you didn't use this as a reason as to why older fighters would win.

 

Do you by any chance watch much modern boxing? Have you read books on the techniques used today?

You're trying to tell me that a boxer like Greb could grab a modern day fighters arm while he was falling straight in and the modern fighter in the process of punching at him? Have you ever read any books on physics?

 

It's not hard to understand, I asked you to explain so I could tear into your argument. I completely understand why they used the techniques they did. It's this simple: They didn't know any better way to do it.

I've explained why each technique you presented wouldn't work in this era. There's nothing else to tell you.

 

It wouldn't be impossible for Toney to slip the punches thrown by older fighters, just as it wouldn't be impossible for older fighters to slip Toney's punches. Both would be doing it sub-optimally for their conditions, though.

You seem to think that technique is the ultimate magic bullet--if you have it, you can run your opponents over if they aren't as savvy. That is no more true for an 1890's fighter fighting today than a modern fighter fighting in the 1890's.

I'd imagine because being tough and being stupid are two different things. Opening your hands up for punishment needlessly is stupid.

There is not one and only one way to slip punches. There is not one and only one way to throw punches, or block, or move. "He doesn't fight like OUR fighters, so he must be wrong" is no different than some Victorian boxing commentator levelling the same charge against our fighters.

You didn't shut the glove argument down. You said a mythic, invincibly tough old timer shouldn't worry about injuring his hands, which didn't matter since we're not discussing old-timers as mythic superheroes.

Yeah, Toney could slip older punches with small gloves. That doesn't mean that he'd be doing it optimally. Moreover, it doesn't mean that guys like Winky Wright would be successful, since he relies on the "pillow wall" defense.

I've seen all existing film from pre-Jeffries fighters. That comprises around a half hour of film--enough to make some basic judgments about the style. Added to the manuals, that's more than enough. I understand it far better than if I looked at a modern boxing manual and saw 30 seconds of Corbett sparring. And as a result, I realize the advantages and disadvantages of fighting that way much better.

You're in a similar situation with the 1920's, but you're starting with the assumption that anything that differs from modern boxing must be wrong and useless. And you're right--neither I, Manassa, or you have ever seen it live. But Manassa and I aren't making any assertions about its ineffectiveness. It is up to you to prove your assertions, and to do that you DO need to understand how it was supposed to work back then. We have the testimony of thousands of fights that 1920's boxing was tested in--you need to come up with more than a few assertions about a minute of film to prove to us that an entire era didn't know how to box.

 

Yep. I do my research on both sides of the coin.

Not like Greb. I made it quite clear that I was talking about a guy more like Corbett, who came two decades before.

 

Obviously. And I told you from the beginning that I did not specialize in this era. If you actually want to learn about why they fought the way they did, then you need to actually research it. If you just want to point out everything they did differently, and assume it didn't work because it was different...well, where's the challenge in that?

So after countless thousands of fights took place over three decades of gloved boxing, the collective intelligence of thousands of fighters could not figure out an effective way of hitting and not getting hit?

This beggars belief.

So this is your final word on the subject?

 

How would they slip his fast, hard and accurate punches when they don't even use an advanced stance which is the base for slipping punches?

When were talking of fighters from this era and the earlier eras it makes all of the difference.

Yes it is, and these guys didn't manager to constantly do this whether on purpose or not? These guys from the linked videos don't look hittable to you?

No there isn't and I never said there was. What I did say is there is only one effective way to slip punches against a modern day fighter. For that you have to be in position and you have to posses very good reflexes. We keep using the same arguments over and over, your viewpoint will never change unlesss you can grasp that boxing has evolved and the rules aren't the primary reason that fights look different today.

I was referring to where I said a fighter like James Toney could slip every single punch thrown at his head by a fighter ofthe early eras.

Are the gloves big or small from this era? Have you ever seen a young WInky Wright before he changed his style. He used to employ a substantial amount of head movement.