Sam Langford Gives His Thoughts On Jack Johnson

Yes you're right, but mention it to kr apper, it happens all the time and in most threads so nothing new.

 

There is no need to rehash once again all your cherrypicked comments concerning anything related to Dempsey. I've showed over and over how you pick and choose articles. Completely ignoring any source documentation that refutes what you want to erroneously convey.

For a successful salesman you live in a pretty crappy townhouse!

 

What the "grate" professor of spins and agendas lives in a crappy townhouse, maybe there is justice in the world. No wonder he's insecure. Maybe that's why he cops out and hides under his many alts kinda feel sorry for him.

 

Great stuff. Thanks, Mac!

 

Blah blah blah. the fact of the matter is its all in my book, all cited, all in public with my name on it and until you can actually give real examples as to why im supposedly wrong or cherry picking and put your name on them you are nothing but a sad dempsey fanboy hiding behind your heros name on an internet forum. lol. if you or perry care to take up the challenge then by all means do so, my work stands on its own two feet and i stand behind it. until you can actually add anything beyond the same tired bleating like a broken record you two and your comical trolling threads arent worth responding to. the only purpose it serves is to distract from the fact that once again mendoza is being made to look like a fool.

 

Ok professor, your challenge, is dumb, but since you brought it up. You do tend to exaggerate a bit when it comes to Greb, for instance that Firpo not only didnt accept an offer to fight Greb but that he ran from Greb, hard to believe. The "Kearns stalling killed the Greb fight in Pitts., those are your words. First off "stalling" is a well known business practice, which was and still is a way to get better terms. The Pitts guy wanted to pay 35% and Kearns wanted 50%. Kearns FYI, had every right to negotiate how and for what he wanted. He was under no obligation to even consider it, let alone accept it. That Greb beat the smaller HW's really mostly heavy LHW's for the most part, and that made him a contender that Dempsey ducked. That he beat Brennan, which you claim was a great fighter, he wasnt, that he beat Tunney who was a great fighter was well and good but he beat a LHW, when Greb fought Tunney at HW, Greb lost and took a beating. Greb was at best a small LHW. You make a point of saying that Brennan made Dempsey look bad, well yes maybe in that fight, but who thought at that time that Brennan would beat Dempsey if they fought him again? Nobody that's who. That well known and respected writers and fans thought Greb was too small to fight Dempsey should tell you all you need to know. That Dempsey in that contract he signed stated under what conditions he would fight Greb, Wills or whoever. He stated the terms quite clearly, and remember he was the champ he could dictate the terms which was the norm. Again Dempsey was under no obligation to accept or even consider any opponent, or offer morally or otherwise. You use a sparring session as proof of what Greb would do to Dempsey. Anybody with any sense and knowledge of boxing can tell you it doesnt mean that much. Greb, IMO would have had a better claim to a title shot had he beat Wills, Firpo, Willard, or Fulton. Greb never fought them why? The same reason he never fought Dempsey he was too small, a 5'8 MW. The Carp - Greb, fight, yes he was offered very good money, but Carp instead took on Bat Levinsky. That was his choice, he made a business decision, again he was under no obligation to consider Greb at all. Carp made a wise decision cos it led to the first million dollar gate. IMO Greb would have beat Carp and that would have changed history, putting that aside, it didnt seem to affect Carp's popularity at all. Dempsey went on to do a few more million dollar gates, so it never affected his popularity that he supposedly "ducked" Greb. The fan's who paid, voted by buying tickets to Dempsey's fights. And 90+ yrs later, Dempsey is revered while Greb is mostly unknown to the average fan, which is a shame cos the guy was a great fighter, and should have been a two division champion, MW & LHW, instead of monkeying around as a HW contender. Why do I have to buy your book if this here is an example of whats in your book, spins and agendas. I would rather look at primary sources who were around at the time and make up my own mind as to what's what and for free.
That should be enough "bleating" for now, I await your response, and apologize to Mc, again for hi-jacking his thread.

 

Wait, how did Louis and Walcott 1 come into this? Don't get me started on that one guys LOL

 

It doesnt matter if its hard for YOU to believe. It happened. Period. Its detailed on page 484 of my book with sources cited on page 702. The comment "its hard to believe" is not a rebuttal. I asked you for specifics, not vague generalities with nothing to support it. You can either cite your rebuttal or shut the **** up.

You can call it what you want but EVERY time a generous offer was floated to Dempsey both he and Kearns, not just Kearns, found an excuse not to accept. In every instance they either took on a lesser opponent, or simply did not fight. If it were one isolated incident you might have point but it wasnt. It happened five or six times in regards to Greb and innumerable times in regards to Wills. Ive covered this ground with you before with numerous examples and citations, far outweighing anything youve ever brought to the table. The fact is you CHOOSE TO BELIEVE what you want to BELIEVE. The record, Dempsey's record, and the behavior of both he and Kearns shows a very clear pattern. That is indisputable. Stalling CAN be a business practice BUT if you have a limited amount of time for the promoter to be able to stage the event and you stall past the point that he can have the arena built, print tickets, etc then it isnt a business tactic, its ducking. As for the percentage etc, you can only cut the pie so many ways before you price yourself out of the promotion. Its done all of the time as Im sure someone with even your limited intellect is aware. You cant argue both sides of the argument, if Greb was such a weak opponent then anyone as supposedly devastating as Dempsey would have been jumping at the chance to pick such a huge sum for such supposedly easy work. If Dempsey thought the fight was so challenging that he wanted to wring every cent out of the promoter for such a risk then you have to admit that Greb wasnt such a bad challenger anyway.

Greb was beating the men available, the men who were considered contenders, and the men who would actually fight him. He beat Brennan four times and Brennan was good enough to get a title shot AFTER. He beat Miske and Miske was considered good enough to get a title shot AFTER, he beat Gibbons and Gibbons was good enough to get a title shot AFTER. He tried to get a fight with Firpo and Firpo declined yet three of the names Firpo used to establish himself as a contender: Weinert, Homer Smith, and Bill Brennan, Greb had already beaten. Furthermore, whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Dempsey defended against "big" heavyweight his entire reign, Firpo, who admitted he wasnt ready for Dempsey before hand and offered to step aside for Wills and who consequently ducked Greb before he met Dempsey. Beyond that Dempsey defended against Miske, a Greb victim who had spent most of his career at or below 175, Brennan, a 4x Greb victim who just as big as Dempsey, Carpentier who spent most of his career at or below 175 and who ducked Greb, Gibbons who lost to Greb twice and spent most of his career at 175 or below, Firpo who ducked Greb, and Tunney who lost to Greb and spent most of his career at 175 or below. So clearly the idea that Greb didnt earn his place relative to anyone else is beyond discussion. A horse thats been beaten thoroughly to death. You dont like it. I get it. But its a fact and you cant ignore it no matter how hard you may try.

Greb did beat Brennan, thats not debateable, its a fact and I never said Brennan was great. Period. Show me where I said he was great. I said he was a good HW contender and a dangerous fighter, he proved that against Dempsey. Greb, in beating him much easier than Dempsey did says a lot.

Tunney was a great fighter and Greb did beat him at HW. Tunney was a HW in Cleveland when Greb won the majority of newspaper decisions there. Furthermore, as has been done to death, when they fought the final time in the Twin Cities Greb was at the end of his career and had a broken rib going into the fight. He was willing to fight Tunney a sixth time in Miami and agreed to terms but Tunney nixed that because he had gotten the greenlight for Dempsey and didnt want to jeopardize that.

So. He showed time and again that his size was little or no handicap.

Nobody thought hed give Dempsey that much trouble in 1920 either, but they did. Thats why fights are fought in the ring and not in the minds of fanboys.

Ive given dozens of examples illustrating that many very highly respected authorities on boxing not only thought that Greb would be a good challenger for Dempsey but several who thought he was THE BEST challenger for Dempsey, and several other who favored him to beat Dempsey. You simply choose to ignore this.

What contract are you referring to? I beg to differ, the champ does not dictate who his opponent is. That was the problem with Dempsey and why he was GREATLY criticized by the press. He wasnt fighting the best. Period. He was picking and choosing his opposition. This isnt my opinion its a fact, which you apparently recognize by the above comment and the fact that you think this is acceptable says more about you than it does about me or him. We may not have had a rating system back then, and Ive always been clear that Greb was never considered Dempsey's top challenger but Harry Wills was. Dont use that to blur the lines between two different arguments. Dempsey was ducking fighters who posed a threat to him. Period. This bull**** about business decisions, and dictating terms is nothing more cowards talk to hide from challenges. We all know it. If a fighter really has an intention to fight his challengers the fights eventually happened. Dempsey went nearly a decade avoiding those guys and never went to the dance. Sorry but your reasoning doesnt hold up and the idea that a champion gets to pick his opponents when and where he wants them is horse****, you know it, I know it, and so does every unbiased sportsman. You can pick a gimme here and there but at some point you need to step up to the plate and Dempsey never ****ing did that.

I use sparring sessions as an example of why Greb cant be discounted. A sparring isnt proof of anything but that. Dont put words into my mouth. Its another piece of the puzzle. If Greb could beat Dempsey's opponents, have other running scared from him, have highly respected critics calling for him to get a shot, be called on as a sparring partner for the champion, and then give him his toughest sparring sessions it says something. Dont pretend that doesnt all add up to something because we all know it does. Nobody was crying for Larry Williams, or Jamaica Kid, Midget Smith, or Tillie Kid Herman, or Martin Burke to get a title shot. What Greb was doing was special and it was well known at the time.

He would have had a better claim, thats true, but was his claim worse than those guys? If so why? Because he wasnt as big? He was beating the same men they were. Why, outside of Wills, do their claims trump his? Thats what you have never been able to come up with. If Greb beat fighter A, B, C, and D but then doesnt get a title shot but Firpo does how does that make sense? You have to have some standard and by the standard of the day Greb was doing everything he could.

 

Wrong. He agreed to fight Firpo. Firpo didnt. Period. Who did Willard fight? While Dempsey was champion Willard had exactly two fights and FYI Willard said Greb was Dempsey's best challenger. Why would Greb have to fight Fulton? What did Fulton do during Dempsey's reign to show he was somebody? By 1920 he was done. After that point he fought and either lost or drew to five guys Greb had already beaten. Furthermore, Greb isnt a promoter. Greb was given offers and its his job to accept them or refuse them. The only time it was every offered for him to fight Fulton was on a charity card and Greb wouldnt have been paid. Now THAT is a business decision. He stated that he would fight Fulton if he were paid and all of the money was to go to charity so the promoters refused. Period. Thats all in my book too. Can you cite me another instance where Greb refused to fight any of those guys? You cant.

You are absolutely incorrect here. Its common position for you so Im sure you are used to it. Tex Rickards huge offer to Carpentier came in 1922, 1920, it was AFTER the Levinsky and AFTER the million dollar gate. Carpentier never made that much money again. It was not a wise decision. In the fight he took instead of Greb he got battered, lost his title, was paid about 1/5 what Rickard offered and had his reputation tarnished with a fight fixing scandal. Only a deluded, ill informed fanboy would somehow twist that into a wise business decision. Carpentier was made other offers prior to Levinsky to face Greb and he did decline those offers but Levinsky was not yet on tap at that point so he would have had to have been clairvoyant to avoid Greb in favor of Levinsky. Carpentier had numerous opportunities to test his mettle against Greb and refused.

Dempsey certainly wins the popularity contest today but even he would admit that he was not a popular champion per se until after he lost the title. Anyone can tell you that the want to see someone beaten is as powerful or more powerful than the want to just see someone. But none of this detracts from any of my points.

I dont think Greb, "monkeying around" with heavyweights either hindered his chances at any title shot or hurt his stature, resume, or standing.

Then I would suggest you do that. You clearly havent.

All of the above was nothing more than your opinion. You came on here with a specific criticism: That I cherry pick my sources and twist the story. I asked for specific examples. You didnt list a single source. You didnt cite a single rebuttal source that I left out of my book. Nothing. In fact you say you havent read my book so until then I will be awaiting an answer to my actual challenge, with specifics. Because here is the thing and weve seen this before: You might go to my book and find something you dont agree with and come back here with an article that supports your contention but the odds are that I cite that article in my book as an alternate view. Youve done that before, posted an article here that you think is some "gotcha" moment and its actually already quoted in my book. So again, show me where I cherry pick my sources with actual real examples and with the citations to refute it, or shut the **** up. Its a simple challenge and despite your broken record post above you still havent taken up the gauntlet.

 

Ah professor your comeback sounds good but can easily be picked apart. Since it's a lot to digest I will respond piece meal if that's ok.

"It doesnt matter if its hard for YOU to believe. It happened. Period. Its detailed on page 484 of my book with sources cited on page 702. The comment "its hard to believe" is not a rebuttal. I asked you for specifics, not vague generalities with nothing to support it. You can either cite your rebuttal or shut the **** up."

First off, you made the statement that Firpo RAN, not me so it's on you that has to back it up, why do I have to? You are a funny guy like always you frame answers and question to suit you. I have done some research and cannot find anything not even a mention of this great fight, so it leads me to believe that it wasnt that big of a deal at the time. That you wont even go into it leads me to believe that is your interpretation of the facts. Why are you so insecure? It's not like it's a major fight covering a whole chapter, if that were so somebody would have at least written something about it. Again why would a big in everything HW, power, size be afraid to face a 5'8 MW that had nothing but speed, and no real pop, to back him up. Just guessing but probably what happened, was that Firpo didnt need to take the fight like the Carp fight. Again, if it was an offer even Firpo, was under no obligation to accept or acknowledge that offer. As always you bend the facts to support your theory. Maybe it's cos someone else can read into it and come up with a different perspective, is that what your afraid of?

 

I did back it up. i gave you everything you need. if you cant read or afford my book or a library card then thats your problem. as i said before, its not my job to educate you.


And once again you post with nothing but opinions. nothing. you made a specific charge that i cherry pick my sources. i asked for SPECIFIC examples and your sources to refute my contention. nothing. nothing but your opinion. so you make these claims but admit you havent read my book, cant produce any specific examples of your allegations, cant produce any sources to back your claim or support it, nothing. until you can actually formulate a serious argument stop wasting everybodys time. dont give me this supposition bull**** when you admit you dont even know the first thing about what you are talking about. This horse**** about how this guy or that guy "didnt need" to take the fight is nothing but an excuse by you. firpo didnt NEED to fight homer smith, or weinert, or joe burke, or jack mccauliffe. he didnt need, but he did. thats the point, he was fighting less than threatening guys. he didnt have to fight cliff kramer but thats who he offered to face as an alternative to greb. you know how he even knew he kramer was? kramer LOST an 8 rounder on Firpos last undercard. thats who firpo wanted instead of greb. did he NEED to fight cliff kramer? you could apply the same standard to Carpentier but lets get real here when you are pretending to admire a FIGHTER based on his supposed BUSINESS decisions and not his actual FIGHTS you arent really a fan of the sport are you? thats like lauding mayweather for waiting until it didnt matter for him to fight pac? was that good for the fans snd the sport and did it show floyd was going to go after the best? hell no! the only people who laud bull**** excuses like that are the ones who dont really want to see their favorites tested or exposed. thats you to a t. you arent a boxing fan you are a dempsey fan. pathetic. so next time crawl out of your hole to post here be sure to answer my actual challenge, and dont just come armed with your starry eyed hero worship.