Sam Langford has better wins at HW than Jack Johnson & should be ranked higher

Best common opponent?

Would not the beutiful Sam McVea have a case?

He was generaly more highly regarded than Jeanette at the time.

 

What you're forgeting is Johnson was the Bad N1gger who when smashing the white champions simultaneously masterbated over white women, while Sam Langford moved to the other side of the street to avoid 'white folks'

 

Agree about McVey, at least the equal of Joe.
In fairness to Sam, the Norfolk and Godfrey wins even up the wins debate.

 

I feel as though a loss to someone like Marvin Hart on Langfords record wouldn't do his legacy as much harm as it being on Johnson's record.


And honestly, Hart seems to be the only smudge on Johnsons record that could make this comparison a really close one.


I think the best thing to do for these comparisons is find testimonials of their boxing abilities from the same reporter/author who actually saw them fight, and compare the testimonials.


They were printing in the papers that Johnson was the best contender for the belt way before he won it. Was that the case for Langford? I cant doubt he was rated one of the best, but why did they say Johnson was the best contender, and not Langford?

 

I never thought that Langford could even be rated near Johnson on all-time HW list and now I wonder why I used to think so
Thanks McGrain for that thread...

 

Ahh gotcha, thanks!


very interesting. How much was Langford weighing around during his peak HW days?

 

Interesting....he beat better opponents, but lost to some average fighters....Johnson would never lost to Fireman Jim Flynn or Bill Tate.....

And Langford dropped Johnson, well, at least Johnson said in his book "My life and battles".......(don´t know if is true, but he said that, I´m asking why he would lie...there is no reason ?)
correct me if I said any bull****...haha

 

In fairness to Langford there is some doubt about his loss to Gunboat Smith,,black fighters did not allways get the, "rub of the green," in contests with white opponents.
Langford was not in shape for all his fights, he put on, and took off weight regularly ,which may also account for some of his performances, a bit like Johnson in that regard.
What we do know, is that when Sam was in shape, and focused,he crucified Smith, and Flynn.
Johnson v Langford?
A 28year old Johnson ,weighing 185lbs, dropped a 23 year old Langford ,scaling 156lbs twice, and broke his nose. Langford did not floor Johnson.
Both men were short of their prime, in physique, and weight, Langford though the more experienced fighter ,with more contests under his belt, was certainly further from his peak than was Johnson.

 

If you go on the filmed fights Langford certainly ranks higher than Johnson. Langford deserved a title match when Johnson was champion. We all know the story. Johnson avoided him.

 

"Langford also lost to
Barry x3, as well as drew with him.
Lost to Flynn
Lost to Smith
Lost to Jim Johnson, and drew with him. This was in 1915 the same year Johnson fought Jack Johnson to a draw, when Jack was handicapped with a broken arm, and was 35 years old.
Lost to Clark, and drew with him
Lost to Smith
Lost to Fulton x2
Lost to Meehan
Lost to Temple"

Just FYI, Langford never lost to Jim Barry.

 

Okay :good.....

And I just said that because I read this:

Johnson - "In the second round, the little ****** landed a terrific right hand on my jaw and I went down like I had been hit by a cannonball.......It was all I could do to get back on my feet by the time the referee was about to count "Ten!"....."
My life and Battles, Christopher Rivers......(p- 45)

It´s weird.....

 

Part I (Too long for one post)
Not that the following has any conclusive bearing on this issue, but I thought it might be of interest to some to read some notes concerning the results of the fights Johnson and Langford had with another common opponent, “Philadelphia” Jack O’Brien. I’d like to read more newspaper accounts of the Johnson – O’Brien match myself:

Boxrec comments concerning 5-19-1909 six-round fight in Philadelphia between heavyweight champion Jack Johnson and “Philadelphia” Jack O’Brien:
Referee: Jack McGuigan -World Heavyweight Title
"Three or four times during the mixes-up, O'Brien was roughed to the floor, and once he got tangled in the ropes." (Philadelphia Inquirer)Philadelphia Inquirer scored for Johnson. Wilkes-Barre Times Leader had O'Brien winning three rounds, with two even, and 5th round to Johnson (same report was printed in NY Sun and Washington Herald). NY Times ruled it a draw. Wire in multiple newspapers (for example, San Francisco Call) had it a draw. Trenton Times reported that the referee stated he thought O'Brien the winner by a shade. Sports editor of Philadelphia Inquirer in May 23 issue wrote: "A half dozen writers, for instance, gave Johnson the credit of having won the bout, but no two of them agreed as to the distance by which he won, and if you read all these accounts you must have come to the conclusion that he won any distance from a whisker to a city block. And it was the same with the able gentlemen who espoused the O'Brien cause. Some declared that he won all the way, and that but for his willingness to take the initiative there would have been no milling at all, while others gave him the decision solely for the splendid showing he made against such a tremendous physical handicap."
Langford fought O’Brien a little more than two years later, in New York, on 8-15-1911.

Boxrec comments concerning that fight which Sam won by TKO in the fifth round: “Sam Langford, of Boston, with an advantage of about ten pounds in weight, fought 'Philadelphia' Jack O'Brien to a standstill in four and one-half rounds at the Twentieth Century Club in New York. Referee White prevented a knockout when he stopped the bout in the middle of the fifth round. O'Brien was practically out from the effects of a hard left hook to the jaw and had to be helped to his corner." (San Juan Prospector

Here’s a compilation of notes I have concerning Sam’s bout with O’Brien and related issues:
Aug. 13th – N.Y. Tribune – Reported that O’Brien was in fine condition and had trained in private for five weeks for the contest with Langford. O’Brien was expected to try and outpoint Sam.

Aug 15, 1911. Milwaukee Evening: Langford vs. "Philadelphia" Jack O'Brien. The bout took place in New York, NY at the 20th Century Athletic Club. Sam had at least a ten pound advantage in weight. A hard left hook had O’Brien practically out on his feet and referee, Charley White prevented O’Brien from being knocked out clean when he halted the fight in the middle of the fifth round. None of O’Brien’s punches had enough steam to bother Sam the least bit, while Langford’s punches were of the “sledgehammer” order. O’Brien’s career record going into the bout was 98-5-16 (54 KO) in 183 total bouts. Milwaukee Evening

Aug. 15 – Philadelphia Jack O’Brien, N.Y. Twentieth Century A.C. Scheduled ten rounder KO 5
That mornings N.Y. Times reported that the Boston Tar Baby would have a considerable weight advantage on O’Brien and was expected to finish Jack’s aspirations for more ring glory before ten rounds. O’Brien was expected to enter the ring at 170 pounds, at least 15 to 20 pounds lighter than Langford. They advised that O’Brien had done practically no fighting during the last few years, even though he did come back and show wonderful cleverness in his fight with Ketchel in the city, only to be knocked out at the very end of the three round contest (June of 1909).

The men fought before one of the best houses seen at the club that year. It was estimated that there was more than 7,500 in attendance. Rumor had it that both men would receive approximately $5,000 for their work. The betting was 3 to 1 that Langford would win and even money that he would win within six rounds.

Those in attendance included Bob Fitzsimmons, Peter Maher, Tom Sharkey, Billy Papke, Abe Attell and Kid McCoy. In fact, McCoy was one of O’Brien’s advisers for the contest.
Fitzsimmons was invited into the ring and received an ovation. When the cheering subsided he was asked for a speech. The ex-champion told the crowd that he had retired from the ring but if there was money in it he would be glad to fight Jim Corbett again! Sharkey then jumped into the ring and said that if Corbett and Fitz were going to meet he was going to challenge the winner to a match. There were numerous amused clappings and shouts from the crowd. Sam and O’Brien then made their appearance.
Sam took a 10-15 lb weight advantage over his highly regarded opponent into the ring for this contest. For four and a half rounds the two fought to a standstill until Sam landed a hard left hook to O’Brien’s jaw midway through the fifth round. At that point, referee Charlie White prevented a knockout when he stepped in and saved the obviously out on his feet fighter and helped him to his corner. Once in his corner, O’Brien pulled off his gloves and rubbed his jaw as if in much pain. Sam was grinning from ear to ear as he went to this dressing room.

It was clear to most that Sam was pulling his punches.

It had been obvious from the start that Sam’s punches had more force behind them and while O’Brien exhibited clever footwork and scientific boxing it was simply a matter of Sam being too strong for him.

 

Part II

Sam: “If anybody was to ask, who is light heavyweight champion of the world, I would say: “Little Thammy, and no one else but.” I won that lovely little crown in 1911. It didn’t do me much good because it didn’t fit my head, but a long time afterward a Jewish fighter found it in a scrap heap, dusted it off, said it was his and made a lot of money with it.

After drawing with McVey in Paris, in April, 1911. I came back home, arriving late in May. From then until early in August I fought five fights, winning four on knockouts and going ten rounds no decision with Honey Caponi in Winnipeg on the other.

Then I was matched to meet “Philadelphia Jack O’Brien” in New York. I nailed Jack in the 5th round, and when the referee got through singing over him, a friend of mine jumped up into my corner and said: “Sam, you’re a champion now.” “What am I champion of?” I asked. “You’re champion of the world, yes, indeed, world’s champion light heavyweight.” I looked at him and said: “Now how did that happen?” Then he told me this:

In 1903, Jimmy Coffroth, promoting a fight between Bob Fitzsimmons and George Gardner in San Francisco on November 25th, decided the boys should be fighting for something besides a little cash. So Jim told the world that the winner would be declared the light heavyweight champion of the world, and that the weight in that class would go from 159 to 175 which was between the middies and the heavies.

Bob whipped Gardner. And that made Bob the champ. In 1905 O’Brien knocked out Fitz, and that made O’Brien the champ. “So, you see,” my friend said, beating O’Brien tonight makes you the champ doesn’t it?” “I guess maybe it does.” I said “but what am I going to do with this here championship, now that I’ve got it?”

My friend didn’t know. Neither did I. Nobody wanted to fight me for it, so I didn’t do anything. After a while I forgot about it and then one day, about six or so years later, Battling Levinsky comes along and says: “Well, boys, I’m the light heavyweight champion because I beat Jack Dillon” and everybody says is that so, well, well. And they go along about their business and don’t pay attention to it until Georges Carpentier gets over from France and beats Levinsky, and makes a lot of noise about being the champion of a division which I’ve I became after I defeated O’Brien.

Of course, I hadn’t been what you would call the active champion. I guess maybe you could call me the overgrown champion, nobody could call me that until years later, because it wasn’t until then that I began to lose my figure.

I don’t just remember when I got beyond 175. But it wasn’t until the 1920’s. And I’ve never been much over that at any time. Up until around 1922 I could have made 170 anytime with a little training. But what was the use of my doing any training. Those champions and the near champions just wouldn’t fight me, and if a fellow can do a little good socking he doesn’t need to do much training for the kind of fellows who were fearless enough to take a chance with Little Thammy.

Mind you, I’m not saying that I was such a nasty tough boy that nobody could hear me when I was yelling for fights. That might have been it, but maybe the real reason is that the boys figured it out that it wouldn’t do them much good to whip me, and it wouldn’t do them half as much good to get whipped by me.

So, in later years, I never did much training, but even if I didn’t, that doesn’t take away from me four championships which I held:
(1) World’s light heavyweight champion.
(2) English middleweight champion.
(3) English heavyweight champion.
(4) Champion of Cambridge street, Boston. (What about Mexico?) Hot dog, that’s funny.

I’m all done and washed up, yet I’ve got four championships right in my vest pocket. Maybe if I think a little harder, I can think up a few more.”

August 16th – The Hamilton Spectator reported that had Sam and his manager wanted to end the fight against O’Brien sooner, it appeared that he could have taken him out as early as the first round. It was speculated that Sam believed the big crowed on hand which had paid top notch prices to see the bout were entitled to a run for their money, and thus carried O’Brien until the fourth round. Sam pretty much nailed O’Brien at will. One report of the fight said that Sam toyed with O’Brien from the beginning and that the match should never have been made, but went on to say that could be said about the majority of the matches in which Sam figured as a principal, so good was he at that stage of his career.

O’Brien was considered over the hill at the time. He was a mere shadow of his former self and appeared frightened as he stood in his corner waiting for the bell to signal the start of the fight.

One paper went so far as to say that it was known in advance that O’Brien would be no match for the Boston Tar Baby, and that if opponents worth of Langford’s ability couldn’t be found, it was better for him to remain idle, and that putting him in the ring with men who are willing to take the loser’s end and a beating was unfair to the public.
The N.Y. Tribune report of the fight indicated that for a minute in the first round O’Brien showed a flash of his old time form, but that the “crushing, gruelling wallops of the terrible Boston Tar Baby soon took away his steam and slowed him down to a walk”.
The end came after about a minute’s work in the fifth round. Bleeding, weak and groggy, O’Brien came up for the inevitable. He tried to evade Langford, but in vain. Sam bored in. He put a light left on the head and as O’Brien tried to lead the right, he flashed in with a terrific smashing left on the chin. Down crashed O’Brien and he rolled partly through the ropes. He tried to crawl back and when at the count of nine he rose, Charlie White, the referee, stopped the unequal battle and sent Langford to this corner.

O’Brien was nervous at the start, while Langford was cool as ice. The Negro floored his opponent with a left on the head in the first round, but Jack got right up. As Sam drove a hard right to the stomach O’Brien gasped and hung on desperately. Langford drew blood from the nose in the second round and battered O’Brien about with heavy wallops to the face and body. O’Brien held with all his might and staggered to his corner at the end of the round. A left hook in the third sent O’Brien to the canvas again.

O’Brien tasted the canvas for the third time when Sam crossed a right to the head with a left to O’Brien’s stomach. Although a sorry sight, O’Brien managed to last the fourth stanza (he was saved by the bell.)

The N.Y. Times reported that O’Brien took an awful beating in the fight and the consensus of opinion was that Langford could have ended it long before he administered his fifth round knockout blow. O’Brien boxed cleverly, but his blows lacked steam, and despite rocking Sam’s head a dozen times during the bout, Sam was always wading in, without any apparent concern for O’Brien’s blows. The end came forty-seven seconds after the start of the fifth.

When Sam fought Philadelphia Jack O’Brien in New York in the summer of 1911, Nat Fleischer reported the fight for the New York Press for which he worked and he was stunned by O’Brien’s perfect jabbing and general footwork. “It was a real case of the master showing at his best, yet Philadelphia Jack’s best was insufficient. Time and again as Jack feinted with his left, Sam would duck under the blow and in the fifth round, as O’Brien rushed forth, Sam let go a shot that landed with terrific force under the heart.
I can still hear the groan of Philadelphia Jack as he dropped his hands to his sides and keeled over. He was unable to move for almost ten minutes. Such was the power of Sam Langford’s wallop.”

Ring magazine editor and founder, Nat Fleischer said that “Sam Langford was one of the hardest punchers of all time, and certainly must be ranked amoung the top 10 heavyweights of all time. I wouldn’t call him as many have, the greatest heavyweight, but he does merit a place among the top ten. I saw him fight five times, against Harry Wills, Battling Jim Johnson, Sam McVey , Joe Jeannette, and Philadelphia Jack O’Brien. He was not only a terrific hitter but he was also a good boxer. He could even stun a man by hitting him on the shoulder or arms.”