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Vernon Gravely writes about Papke: Labor Day, 1908

Papke said after the fight: "You notice I didn't shake hands with him," he added when criticized about his tactics employed at the beginning of the mill. "The time we fought before he hit me when I shook hands with him and this time I took no chances. I got him first, that is all."

What Papke says is the one thing that has never been reported. No one has ever reported that Ketchel gave a sucker punch to Papke. No one.

 

First let me say this: The NY Times is not a primary source for fights taking place in Los Angeles. The Los Angeles Times and Los Angeles Examiner are. I'm not so sure that San Francisco sent any sportswriters down here to cover the fight either.

Second, I have to thank you because I think you may have inadvertently pointed me to something: "When James J. Jeffries, the referee, called time... "

"Called time" In other words the Jeff signaled the timekeeper and the gong sounded(which he had every right to do). This means that the Ref's mid-ring instructions are over and the fight has commenced (which eliminates the portion of the myth stating that Ketchel was hit during the ref's instructions).

Papke did indeed ignore Ketchel's handshake and start fighting him after the bell rang. That was never in dispute by me. What is disputed was whether or not Papke nailed him in the throat with a sucker punch while he was extending his hand for a shake. There is no indication of such a thing, even in the NY Times non-primary report. It says he "sailed into Ketchel". Not that he surprised him by nailing him in the throat with a right that floored him.

The sources that were actually PRESENT at the fight, which I have already named, state in their blow-by-blow accounts that Ketchel was nailed with a right hand after about a minute or so of fighting, a right that hurt and floored him(the NY TImes and others also give credence to this when they print "The fight was practically over a minute and twenty seconds after the gong sounded"). If a sucker punch landed when the myth says it did wouldn't it read "The fight was practically over before the bell sounded"? Or "Right after the bell sounded and that cheap shot artist Papke hit poor Stanley in the throat when he was merely extending his hand for a shake"? If he was indeed criticized later for his not shaking hands with Stan then it was just about him being a bad sportsman. Again, there is no one accusing him of a cheap shot right after the bout. Both men were in good shape and fighting hard for a little over a minute when Papke nailed Ketchel.

Papke's follow up assault further brutalized Ketch and as a result he was never able to recover and mount a sustained attack on Papke. This is the report from the primary sources and there is nothing to refute it.

Where are the editorials denouncing Papke's foul, cheapshotting tactics? Where are the interviews with the principles, manager, fans, sportswriters, etc denouncing Papke? Where is there a single post fight interview of someone saying "If Papke hadn't have cheapshotted Ketchel there's no way he wins the fight!"? Why did both Ketchel and his manager after the fight proclaim "The better man won"?

I realize that this cheap shot myth is a pervasive one in boxing. It is so deeply imbedded in our lore that nobody even questions it. I never did myself until about 6 months ago when Sergei/Senya pointed it out to me. So I went researching at the library, checked out the primary sources and saw that Sergei was correct. I was not invested in being "right" or defending something. I was interested in the truth. The truth bore itself out in this case.

 

Was Harry Pegg there? Which paper did he originally print his round by round in? I would be interested to look this up.

 

They were probably pulled because they were lies.:yep

Philidelphia Record - Sept. 8, 1908

Montreal Gazette - Sept. 8, 1908

New York Times - Sept. 8, 1908

San Francisco Chronicle - Sept. 8, 1908

Monte Cox - Boxing Historian, writes about the sucker punch.

Vernon Gravely - Boxing writer, writes about the incident. Papke's interview in his own words.

 

What I see the most off kilter is that it wasn't in the throat. Papke, himself, has said he did that because he was hit that way first. But I have yet for proof of Stanley Ketchel having done that to Papke.

Library sources have been checked by Ketchel on his sources, too. I guess, now, it's people who want to believe it was a fair deed against people who didn't think it. But, there are more sources saying Papke did do wrong than not.

 

Again, there are NO next-day reports, primary or non-primary, that state that Papke nailed Ketchel with a shot when he extended his hand for a shake after the bell sounded. Only that he "sailed into" him.

Show me the exact source where it states that Papke hit Ketchel when he extended his hand. I haven't seen it. And the PRIMARY sources don't support it (nor do the non-primary ones that you cite).

 

Was Vernon Gravely there? I can't recall:huh

 

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Fistsfork, here. Neither are you, Klompton.

 

He didn't have any personal account, he merely reprinted the Associated Press round-by-round report, in Boxiana Review #10. The story of the referee's instructions of "protect yourself at all times" being introduced as the result of that bout (which Pegg says didn't exist at the time of this Papke-Ketchel bout) has been proven wrong as well. There is at least one earlier mention that I found.

 

You are the one that is sad Klompy. You're simply a huge no account. I don't have a book, but I am thinking it would be a "grand tome" to write one about a thoroughbred boxing historian named none other than compton the ESB Klompton, and his ESB Klompaholics :asskiss. Ketchel has said that no matter what anyone else says, you will say you are right. He's right. I guess you've been anointed with hard and fast evidence. You and your cronies will surely ascend into the heavens as the only jackasses there. Not.
But, when, and if you get there, however, I hope Stanley Ketchel beats the hell out of all of you. Then, let it be told. You won't be able to prove it, though. Besides, no one would believe you anyway.

I am a Stanley Ketchel fan, like it or not.