Save your money on these biographies

This Papke-Ketchel controversy is pretty interesting to me and I've been doing a fair amount of digging into it of late as well. I came across that same article about Ketchel extending his glove at the start of the 1st round of their first fight and Papke sailing into him and nailing him with a series of blows. So far I haven't found any newspaper accounts of one of those being to the adams apple, but clearly Ketchel was taken by surprise when Papke didn't touch gloves and instead started firing punches, though it sounds as though the first one was a left lead followed by a succession of blows to the head.

The post fight comment by Papke in which he states that Ketchel did that to him in their first fight was the first time I came across a complaint on his part like that. He certainly didn't complain about that when he issued a statement after the fight. In fact he said, "I underrated Ketchel. That's all. I didn't think there was a man in the world who was so strong or would could hit so hard. At that, I think the decision might have been stretched into a draw. I have lost my claim to the middleweight title, but I think I can win it back if I ever meet him again." Racine Daily Journal- 6/5/1908. That same paper says that when the first round started Papke danced out of the corner with his usual jaunty air, smiled as he shook hands and made a few passes. Then he ran into a right hook and hit the floor with a thud." George Phair of the Milwaukee Sentinel provided this account for the Racine paper.

The June 5 La Crosse Tribune says that after the announcements and shaking hands the first round opened with Papke deliverying a hard punch to Ketchel's jaw.

But I found it interesting that in the September 6, 1908 article written by Eddie Smith the day before their 2nd fight he say's that "Freddie (Welsh) said that in the last (first meeting) contest Ketchel sneaked one over on the Illinois fighter just as the men broke from the handshake, and that for the first four rounds Papke was unable to see the Michigander." Anybody know if Freddie Welsh attended that first fight in Milwaukee?

 

:rofl:rofl

 

Milwaukee Journal, Grand Rapids Evening Press (special report) and the AP wire didn't mention anything like foul play during the handshake.

 

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I am too. So are many people here. Nothing wrong with that. The guy was a killer and I've met few boxing fans who don't like a good ring assassin.

But we shouldn't let our fanship of him or any favorite render us incapable of taking in new info on him/them.

 

I dont have anywhere near the knowledge of you guys looking into it, but it seems very unlikely that Freddie Welsh was in Milwuaukee, as he was fighting out of Los Angeles at the time. He had a fight a week or so before at Los Angeles, and there are articles of promoters going to los Angeles to try to negotiate the Packey MacFarland fight, just a couple of days after. It isnt impossible, of course, but it does seem unlikely.

 

"Also look for an interview Papke did with George Siler not long after the first fight. I believe it appeared in the Chicago Trib. He mentions it there as well and it predates any story of Papke suckering Ketchel."

You must be thinking of another writer, it appears that Siler suffered a heart attack on June 5, the day after the fight, and then passed away on June 13, 1908. Unless Siler obtained the interview information immediately after the 6/4 fight and it was printed?

As for Freddy Welsh and his comments about the first Ketchel-Papke fight I do see where he fought in Vernon, CA on both 5/30/1908 & 7/4/1908. So he was in the states and suppose he could have travelled to Milwaukee to view the Ketchel-Papke fight on June 4. Will have to keep poking around for more on that to see if there is anything on him traveling to Milwaukee during that period of time.

 

Actually it appears Siler was stricken in Chicago on June 4 while heading downtown to catch a train to Milwaukee to view the fight so never made it to the fight.

 

But he has not written a book on it. You just admitted that you wrote something that has no real basis as fact in your book based on a belief.

Klompton has already stated if he comes across numerous sources with differing opinions, and he cannot get to the bottom of it and prove it, he gives both sides of the story and lets the reader decide.

You did not do this. You wrote a book based on your beliefs.

I think klompton is being harsh in this thread, but what he is saying is correct, you cannot write anything based on your beliefs, its books like that that cloudy the picture and make it harder to actually find the truth. At the end of the day the truth is what we are all after, or at least most of us.

 

No apology.

 

I take the apology back. There's no point putting the newspaper, or the article this was found in. People who want to debunk everything about Stanley, won't be receptive to it. This picture was taken before the second fight of Stanley Ketchel and Billy Papke. The fight Between Papke, and Ketchel. The 2nd fight is when Ketchel began to no longer respect J. Jeffries. Jeffries allowed Stanley to be hit by a "sneak" punch. Writer and eye witness, Billy McCarney, writes his account of the "sneak" punch for Ring magazine in December, 1948.
After that, Stanley had gone to Jeffries training camp before the Johnson vs. Jeffries fight. It was known, already, that Stanley Ketchel wanted Johnson to win the fight. When it was discovered he (Stanley)was there, Jim Jeffries had him ordered off the training camp area.

I can just see it now. McCarney was this, he was that, he was not there, etc., etc.

No, I am not Manuel, or Ketchel, so bite your big fat tongue, Klompton.