School me why Jung Koo Chang should be considered among the best ever at his weight class.

Your ego has gotten out of hand on here recently.

 

* Sixteen title defenses.
* Half of those defenses come against former or future titleholders, indicating quality in addition to quality. (Torres x3, Ohashi, Chitilada, Tokashiki, Perez). Also had two wins over former titleholders on his run up to the title.
* Beat a HOF'er to win the strap after dropping a close, debatable decision to him in a previous fight.

His main contemporary, Yuh, conceded that he thought Chang was better and would likely beat him in a hypothetical match-up.

Tough for me to think of a 108lb fighter who matches the quality and quantity of work at the weight that Chang produced.

 

1. Kittikasem-Chang was for the flyweight championship and has no bearing on his rating at 108. A past prime Chang dropped Kittikasem three times and was well ahead in the fight before getting caught, it should be noted. Not that you would, of course.

Edit: The fight was up for grabs on the cards, for some reason. Chang was clearly in control for most of the fight, and the three KD's he scored have put him out of sight even if you think MK fought him even on the cards. Just appalling scoring.

2. He reigned for six years, which is not that short of a prime for a junior flyweight. And, as established in a previous post and defeated everyone he faced when he stepped up to world class.

3. The least experienced guys he defeated as title defenses where Chitada (who would go on to win the flyweight championship less than a year after he met Chang), and Ohashi (national champ, future 2x 105lb world titlelist). Everyone else he defended against was pretty experienced.

4. Close fight that could have gone either way. Chang was probably overconfident after having defeated Torres so clearly the first time around, and seemed taken aback when an inspired Torres brought the heat. Chang dealt with it, got the decision, and then handled him more easily the third time around.

Of course...you can watch the fight and judge for yourself if you'd like.

Anyway, school us on your pick for the all time great at One-Oh-Eight. Why should we let you have all the fun of picking a fighter's resume apart?

 

@Drew101 , well said.

 

Actually, this response wasn't that great. And, since I don't think you're going to be dissauded of your opinion, I suspect any further response on my part will be futile.

But, since I'm a sucker for punishment, I'll continue to play along, even though @Tin_Ribs and @Flea Man have laid out the rationale for Chang's quality in previous posts.

1. Kittikasem was a long time muay thai boxer, who had won a division at a lower weight and then moved up and established himself at Flyweight. Chang was basically a career junior flyweight who moved up after a retirement and who clearly wasn't the same fighter at the higher weight. Chang near his worst came within a hair of beating Kittikasem near/at his best. Context matters. So does the fact that this took place than a higher weight division than 108lbs, and therefore is not germane to the discussion.

2. Chang beat more established guys at his own weight than Wilder has at his, thus far. Half the guys he faced as champ were former or future titleholders, including some of the less expereinced guys. Typically, fighters are thrown to the wolves a lot earlier in thier careers at lower weights, so fighters who show promise advance to title shots more quickly. Ever heard of a guy name Naoya Inoue? Yes? Splendid. Good talk.

3. Chitilada was a muay thai champ who showed promise early, got ranked, and got a shot. He then won a Flyweight title in the same year and only three fights aftrer he faced Chang, so that validates the choice of him as a challenger. Ohashi showed promise, beating a former title challenger in his second fight, and winning the Japanese national title before meeting Chang the first time. Then, he gave him a good fight, so they rematched. Nothing nefarious about it. If challengers give champions a good fight, they may well get a rematch down the line.

4. Since the jr lightweight division has been established for 40 years, it deserves its own consideration as a division. Chang spent the majority of time in that particular division, so that division alone is where he rates. I suppose I could see rating Gonzalez and Carbajal above him...but Chang was more consistent and probably wouldn't have gotten blasted out by Pasqua like Gonzalez or mutilated by Baby Jake Mtlala like Carbajal. His bottom end at 108 was better, I think. So, he rates higher.

Anyway, footage of Chang in his prime abounds. Watch it and make your own decision.

 

I added enough earlier in the thread despite knowing that you had no intention of listening as always and th at you'd started the thread in the worst spirit with the intention of constantly rebutting information and insight passed your way by people who are more knowledgeable about Chang, the weight class and the era in question. And you've done exactly that despite having done insufficient research or viewing of Chang and his opponents; your statements about Torres, Ohashi and Chitalada would have given that away even if you hadn't admitted that you weren't fully up to speed on the lower weights (which makes your intractable stance all the more comical). Quoting Chitalada's boxrec record without even naming him (the outstanding fly of the decade who was ready for the fight and looked near his best despite the numbers on his record) or Ohashi. Intimating the possibility of the second Torres fight being a robbery based on the fact it was on Changs home turf despite not even having seen the fight to form an educated opinion (or even read a report from the look of it) and not realising that Chang beat Torres going away in their two other fights (meaning that even if it was bad decision, which it wasn't, Chang still dominated their trilogy and thus it being fairly inconsequential). Writing Zapata off as the great talent and long title holder he was on the basis 'that he lost before Chang and after '. Jesus.

Drew has already said a lot of what else I wanted to say and pointed out the holes in the post that I've quoted here. It's one in the morning here in England and I've wasted time like a mong when I should've been sleeping. Like Flea said earlier, you shut yourself down early in the thread. End of chat. Sorry lad, you're a massive pain in the arse when you're like this. Over and out.

 

that's another top post, said everything and more.

 

I m sure Chang would've been left licking the canvas by the mighty Pascua and Sorjaturong. **** yeeeaahhhh.

 

I wonder if they would have been able to force the reluctant Chang to fight as they take this defensive fighter out of his comfort zone?

 

Also, contemporary reports (AP IIRC) credit Chitalada as being something like 16 or 17-0 as a professional. I’d have to look it up, but it’s likely he had more pro bouts than boxrec shows.

 

Bear in mind The Ring has Chang no.2 at flyweight for the majority of the 80s, when they didn’t do light fly rankings.

No.1 was someone he’d already beaten (Chitalada) and for a point in time Zapata had the WBA flyweight title. So it seems likely that Chang was the de facto best at two weight classes during one of boxings best decades.

As for amalgamated rankings, I do that with 105 and 108, rather than 108 and 112. And I have Chang no.1

 

Yeah, I lump straw and light-fly together too as a general rule. I was looking at the Canto/Calderon thread earlier and thinking of all the little men who've drained to ridiculous depths and diluted the pool whereas a genuine midget like Canto was taking on monsters like Park and having to duck, dive and counter every time for 15 rounds. There are blokes at fly who would've been h2h nightmares for Canto, but feck that little guy was something for holding on to that belt for so long in such a strong era with a size disadvantage like that.

The Ring rated the superflys at bantam too during that time didn't they?

 

They did.

On the flip side I’ve always felt Calderon would’ve been more comfortable at fly/light fly prior to the 80s. Cazares weighed in as a SUPER FEATHERWEIGHT on the night. That’s preposterous.