Score this famous round pls....

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by timeout, Mar 25, 2020.


who did you have

  1. ALI 10-9

  2. Foreman 10-9

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  1. timeout

    timeout Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Just rewatching the old classics during the lockdown.
    + I always loved this round, loved it even since I saw the movie "When we were kings" back in 1996.
     
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  2. timeout

    timeout Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Point for that can be made. But that was a brutal war, this was more than that.

    That last combo of punches Ali threw was pure poetry in motion. Best I have ever seen, and probably ever will.
    The shuffle in out, head left right, and then overhand chopping right followed by a two hand parry to avoid the counter. Stunning

    Then you got Foreman's work, the clubbing hooks he practiced on the heavy bag, Ali's rope a dope.

    This RD embodies everything what is baaaaxing. Art, skill, courage, determination, fitness, beauty, violence, ring IQ.

    And then it struck me! HOW HARD it was to ACTUALLY SCORE IT.

    Have to give it to Foreman though, as the champ he done most of the work up to 2:30 mark. But Ali last 30 sec were legendary.
     
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  3. divac

    divac Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Ali employed a rope a dope strategy that eventually did work, he got Foreman to throw the kitchen sink at him while Ali's gameplan was to sit on the ropes and avoid getting hit with a shot that hurt him badly. In other words, though Foreman was getting some clean shots in, Ali focus was in protecting the sweet spot of his chin so that a shot that would turn his legs to jelly didn't land.

    Though in hindsight we know that Ali's plan worked, as a judge you cant look at a round and score it forseeing the future that Foreman was
    galled into Ali's plan of getting him to punch himself out.

    I cant say, "I'm going to give round 5 to Ali on ring generalship since I now know this round caused Foreman to punch himself out and subsequently get himself knocked out in the 8th round.
    The round needs to be scored on the merits of what happened in that round alone, without considering what happened in previous or subsequent rounds. You do that and there isn't a case to be made that Ali even came close to winning that round.

    If the fight had gone the distance and every round would have played out exactly like round 5, can you imagine the decision going to Ali???
    It would have been the worst decision in boxing history if that had happened.
    Foreman shellaks Ali every round and Ali gets his hands raised. LOL!!!
     
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  4. Holler

    Holler Doesn't appear to be a paid matchroom PR shill Full Member

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    Foreman 10:9

    You've covered the points above.

    I expect boxing judges to be above the fighters trick of putting the effort in the last 30 seconds. No question Ali finishes the round strongly, but it's not enough to outweigh those first 2:20 seconds of Foreman aggression. At least it's not for me, ymmv...
     
  5. Red Pill

    Red Pill New Member Full Member

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    Foreman landed more shots, some very hard body shots too. The closing seconds doesn´t win Ali round 5 for me.

    Foreman 10-9.
     
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  6. tee_birch

    tee_birch Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Foreman won the round. Ali did land the cleaner shots but the volume and activity of Foreman made it a pretty easy one to score for me
     
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  7. EvanderHolyMoly

    EvanderHolyMoly New Member booted Full Member

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    Exactly, it's a trick to fight for the last 30 seconds to try to claim a whole round. Shouldn't determine that you won it if you were battered for the previous 150 seconds.
     
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  8. Robney

    Robney ᴻᴼ ᴸᴼᴻᴳᴲᴿ ᴲ۷ᴵᴸ Full Member

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    Despite the last half a minute, that was a clear Foreman round.
    Stealing a round in the last 30s is a proven tactic, but shouldn't work if you got dominated the 2 minutes proceding it.
     
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  9. Rdc4444

    Rdc4444 Member Full Member

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    Foreman 10-9 for all the aforementioned reasons.
     
  10. Woodster

    Woodster New Member Full Member

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    Yes it was Foreman’s round for me, a lot of the salient points as to why have already been mentioned. His work to the body were spiteful shots, Ali took a few on the arms but there was a number that got through and were ultimately point scoring. Ali sparkled towards the end with some eye catching combo’s but not enough to undo all the work Foreman had put in to the point.

    You could, however, see how much it had taken out of Foreman with all those power shots he threw, some reckless ones too. But it was certainly enough for me to clinch the round.
     
  11. Red Pill

    Red Pill New Member Full Member

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    1/3 voted for Ali?
    Is it how Ali was able to influence the judges at the time, or is it for becoming a legend name, even bigger than boxing today?
     
  12. navigator

    navigator "Billy Graham? He's my man." Full Member

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    Typically, though, when we think of guys trying to 'steal' rounds in the closing stages of a session, we're thinking of a shoeshine flurry in the last 10-20 seconds, less so an emphatic, sustained barrage that leaves the other fellow looking distinctly woozier than he did before.

    (Funnily enough, the most famously cited example of that would also be among the least apt, i.e. Leonard-Hagler. Although the clacker shoeshine was a part of Angie's gameplan, it didn't end up being a decisive factor in many rounds of that fight. HBO's Legendary Nights episode on the fight overplayed that angle a bit.)



    Well, I don't think anybody's put it quite like that. For my part, I argued that you can make a ring generalship case for Ali based on his composure and air of comfort throughout the round, even throughout George's most intense sustained assault of the fight, in combination with the fact that George seems quite together with 1:20 remaining on the clock only to end up looking distinctly unsteady and desperate less than a minute later as the result of an Ali barrage; fatigue played its part in George's deterioration in the last 40 seconds or so, of course, but it was the very hard punches of Ali which pronounced it (the right at 0:19 remaining in the round is his best punch in the fight, even better than the one which eventually laid an even wearier George down). As I said, it creates an impression (arguably deceptive) that Ali has dictated the choreography of the session.

    Seeing as you mentioned George punching himself out and being stopped in the 8th, the 5th is very much the prolepsis or harbinger of it. A dry run, if you like. Hardened boxing fans can't possibly view a fight of such storied ubiquity as live viewers did, with no prior knowledge of the outcome, and you've cannily used that fact against your counterparts in this thread; but, if I were watching the 5th live, I'm pretty sure I'd still be able to perceive that George came out of it the worse for wear and that he was liable to be stopped some way down the line. And that may have an impression on how I judged the round. One man headed back to his corner with a distinct air of authority, and it wasn't George.


    Out of pure curiosity, I took a glance at a site where fight fans submit their scorecards (I don't know if we're allowed to link to other boxing sites here) and noticed that it was pretty much an even split on the 5th. It wasn't just the guys who had Ali way ahead at the time of the stoppage who scored the 5th for him, either, some of the guys who only had a point in it scored the 5th Ali's way. And some scored it even. That does suggest a tight round that is open to interpretation.

    So, in the event that a whole 15 rounds played out exactly like that, I guess you'd have some scoring a shutout for Foreman and some scoring a shutout for Ali. In theory, at least.

    Dealing with more realistic scenarios, though, even when a round follows a pattern very similar to the one which preceded it, the same scorer can split them between two fighters. If a guy imposes his game just a shade more or less effectively or if his portion of the round is just a little more or less emphatic than in the previous session, he can win or lose a session that closely resembles the one he lost or won a few minutes back.



    My point isn't to argue that Ali categorically won the 5th round. I'm just saying he has a solid case. As does George.
     
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  13. Drew101

    Drew101 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Foreman probably held a slight edge in the first minute, I think, but Ali did land a nice uppercut and clean left hook later on in the first third. Ali threw virtually nothing in the next minute or so, but managed to defend well and really didn't start to ship clean punches until about 1:40 into the round, when Foreman mounted that two fisted assault. Foreman did land well to the body, but then Ali landed better, sharper shots and clearly had George looking shaky toward the end of the round.

    If we apply modern criteria, then Foreman holds in the edge in terms of aggression, though it was really only effective for about a third of the round at most. Ali defended well and seemed to land at a higher percentage so he secures the edge in the defense category, and he gave the impression that he was fighting at his preferred pace, so that gives him the edge in terms of ring generalship. Clean, effective punching is debatable...Foreman may well have made more contact, but Ali's shots were definitely cleaner. I think, on the whole, I'd give the edge to Ali as a result, though I can see someone scoring Foreman or calling it 10-10 when viewing the round through that lens.

    If we apply the Mercante principle, and divide the round into three separate thirds and score it based on who controlled more of the action, then Foreman likely would get the edge.

    If we apply a purely elemental and visceral approach to scoring and ask ourselves who would you rather have been once the bell rang to end the round, then the answer would clearly be Ali.

    So, based on all of that, I think Ali shades the round. 10-9 Ali.
     
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  14. divac

    divac Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Respectfully I'm of the opinion that your analysis of the round is baloney.
    There is never any sign physically or in Ali's eye's that he's in control of the round or even the last seconds of the round.
    Ali never shows signs of panic, but that's not signaling he's in control.

    My opinion of the round is that Ali was being hurt by Foreman's shots but like all the greats, he's really good at disguising the damage the shots are doing to him. I've heard Ray Leonard talk about situations in fights where he was hurt badly, but was very good at disguising his discomfort. All the greats have some if not a lot of that.

    Personally I don't think Ali's game plan going into the fight was to let Foreman tee off on him and punch himself out, I think he incorporated those thoughts as he saw Foreman continue to tee off at him not letting his foot off the gas. I think Ali sensed he couldn't get away from Foreman's pressure and he couldn't stand in front of George attempting to counter or trade with him, so I think the genius in Ali kicked in at some point during the match where Ali figured, "this guy isn't letting up, he's got to get tired and lose steam at some point."
    …….and as George Foreman years later described Ali telling him while he was on the ropes, "is that all you got?"
    Ali was continuously telling Foreman that in order to make him dig harder and tire himself out, and as George Foreman would later recant, "like a dummy, I bit the bait."

    Listen, I think Ali himself would tell you he lost that round without a doubt. I think what he would tell us is that he sacrificed that round for the good of the rounds to come where he would then be center ring against a sucking wind and tired George Foreman.
    That was genius of Ali to talk to and bait Foreman the way he did, but having a plan where you let your opponent tee off on you while you just sit on the ropes doesn't get you the round.

    "That round went exactly like I wanted it to go, I wanted him to tee off on me while I just covered up, he never stunned or put me in any real trouble, so even though he's scored with more punches than I did, I should win that round that round should be scored for me because I planned it that way."
    LOL! That would be a laughable and dumb statement if Ali would have said that.

    …...but if Ali would state, "I gave away that round, sacrificed it because I had a plan that would render Foreman gas tank on empty and thus useless for me to then tee off." Now we're talking about reality.

    No doubt about it in my mind, the fact that you claim that round could have gone either way is only because you're looking at it through revisionist eyes in order to over state and satisfy your feeling of the greatness of Ali.
    Ali was genius in that fight, but the truth and the reality of the 5th round is that though Foreman went about it the wrong way using up more energy than was warrented to win the round, he won that round decisively because of it and it wasn't even close.
     
  15. herbzg

    herbzg Euro-Level Athlete Full Member

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    10-9 Ali - Foreman’s punches were having no effect on Ali. Ali stole the round at the end by hurting/almost dropping Foremab
     


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