Scott Ledoux's title shot at Larry Holmes

You are like a puncher old boxer that doesn't know when to quit Chok.

 

Hey, I was around at the time. It frustrated the life out of me that fights did not happen until the HBO serries came along and paid everybody to waive mandatory defences and for the good of boxing simply meet in unifications.

Looking back on that period, which after the C00ney fight was totally grim anyway, using a timeline looking at each individual case I find that I have more sympathy for Holmes than I did then.

Here was an outspoken man who let his mouth go but in truth, if Larry hung around and only fought in unifications with the actual #1 guy he would have defended about as much as Jim Braddock or Jack Dempsey did. He would have been stripped.

Perhaps with Mr King signing up all the contenders he only wanted the best ones to fight for alternative belts in order to promote more championship fights?. And that's just how the governing bodies wanted it, they soon worked out that the entire sanctioning fee was a lot better than having to share half of it with the other governing body as they did before titles were split.

 

Yeah your right, he really sucked .. :nut

 

Since when does a fighter have to possess an ongoing winning streak in order to be dangerous or to be capable of beating any given fighter on any give night? The fact that certain contenders during Holmes' reign kept winning and losing, guys like Thomas and Page and a few others, did not necessarily mean that they could not have defeated Holmes on any given night. Many of those guys were very talented and very good fighters, but they were hot-and-cold, often times winning spectacularly and also losing spectacularly. But on a given night, they could have beaten many guys, including Holmes. Greg Page was Holmes' mandatory challengers, yet Holmes ducked him. Why? Why didn't Holmes just fight his mandatory as he was mandated to do, at that time, when it was supposed to happen? Why did Holmes fight someone else? The same for Pinkly Thomas -- why fight all those other soft touches when you had a talented guy like Thomas vying for the title. Holmes fought other guys who had losing records or who had lost their last string of fights, so why pull the 'well, he lost to such and such a guy' as a reason not to fight him?

Larry Holmes knew that Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas, while being hot-and-cold fighters, were also very capable and very dangerous fighters when they trained and showed up in shape. Holmes had a keen eye for spotting talent; he wasn't stupid. He was not going to voluntarily fight two of the more dangerous, skilled guys (despite their on-again, off-again performances) if he could get aways with fighting easier guys for equal or more money.

Remember, Holmes admitted several times to only wanting to fight easier fighters. He said it, out of his own mouth, several times.

 

Here is a time line for you. This is what happened.

1982 Dokes won the title and Larry defeated the WBA#1 and WBC #1 C00ney.

1983 Dokes is forced to rematch Weaver then defend against Coetzee in his mandatory defence before 1983 is out. Larry Holmes therefore, cannot fight a WBA champion at all in 1983.

1984 what does Larry do? He signs to fight Coetzee for 13 million dollars but the fight falls through twice keeping both Coetzee and Larry out of the ring for most of the year. Larry even took a drop in purse but it still fell through. And by the way, Larry was still an overwhelming favourite for that Coetzee fight.

Pinklon drew with Coetzee then fought Witherspoon for the WBC title on the strength of that draw. The winner, Thomas was out of action with his eye after sparring Ken Lakusta.

Heavyweight
World Champion:
Larry Holmes (IBF)
1. Pinklon Thomas (WBC)
2. Greg Page (WBA)
3. David Bey
4. Tim Witherspoon
5. Gerrie Coetzee
6. Mike Weaver
7. Michael Dokes
8. James Broad
9. Bonecrusher Smith
10. Gerry ****ey
11. Carl Williams
12. Tony Tubbs
13. Tony Tucker
14. Trevor Berbick
15. Marvis Frazier
Those ratings were March 85. Larry beat Bey that month. Weeks later Tubbs (still rated #12) beats Greg Page for the WBA title. Thomas beats #6 weaver in June. So in 1985 Larry has still beat the highest placed contender out of the three champions,,,,and Page has lost his belt to somebody outside the ratings at #12.

The WBC forbade Larry to fight a South African in a unification. the IBF told Larry they would sanction a unification with Coetzee, so Larry walked away under their umbrella. If you look at the Ring Magazine Coetzee was his #1 contender, NOT Page, so he did the right thing. Trouble is doing the right thing was not doing right by the WBC and WBA. Larry was slammed if he did and slammed if he didn't. If Larry fought Page instead of sign to fight the WBA champion he would be ducking the other champion, the Ring #1 challenger!

I still think Larry should have fought Pinklon Thomas. Under a different climate, with one title, he would have been forced to, but also perhaps Thomas might have had to fight and win an eliminator first. Thomas's first big fight was Coetzee, a draw, he then beat Witherspoon in good style so that might be his eliminator, so yes, Thomas would qualify as a challenger after beating Witherspoon. Trouble is, there really was only one good win in Thomas after that point.

 

Good Post! And facts I remember:good

 

You never answered the poster's question

You simply state a thesis on why Larry never fought the WBA champ between 1982-1984.

You obviously are working from the false premise that Larry had every intention of trying to unify post ****ey through the end of his tenure with the WBC.

He was offered a ton of $$$ to fight Coetzee.

He would make much more money for fighting Coetzee than Page, or so he thought.

The problem is Holmes fought lowly ranked Frank and Frazier before the Coetzee fight could ever hope to be made.

Greg Page was the #1 Contender well before Holmes could have fought Coetzee.

Therefore, Holmes had an obligation to fight Page before trying to unify with Coetzee.

He thought Page was as risky as Coetzee, if not more so and would offer a smaller purse than Coetzee. so he jumped ship to the IBF.

None of this takes away from the fact Holmes should have fought Page in late '83 or the beginning of '84.

The fact Page kod Coetzee later in '84 just reinforces the belief Holmes ducked Page.

He would not have been "slammed" for fighting Page.

Coetzee had just won the WBA title and nobody was demanding Larry fight him.

It was all about the $$$$$$$$$ to Larry.

As it turned out, Larry and Coetzee were inactive for over a year while their fight was never made, and Witherspoon, Thomas and Page staged competive fights while the other two were forgotten about.

Then, Page kod Coetzee.

One thing I will posit although it may not be true - I wouldn't be surprised if Don King did anything he could to sabbotage Holmes/Coetzee from happening in 1984.

As it was, DK ended up getting the WBA title in his clutches when his guy Page, beat Coetzee.

Now, DK controlled the WBA and WBC titles and Holmes ended up having to work with him again, although I believe Holmes-Carl Williams had no DK involvement.

 

Every champion in the split era felt that way

But, as bad/corrupt as the sanctioning bodies can be, they have a set of rules to enforce. True, they often enforce them in an arbitrary, politcal manner.

Often, guys were forced to fight obscure #1 contenders. For Example, Ray Mancini had to fight Orlando Robero and Ernesto Espana. Of course they were not really legitimate #1 contenders, so he gladly fought them.

Page, on the other hand, was a legitimate #1 contender and this case, the WBC gave Holmes plenty of time to fight Page, and he refused.

Yes, a chance to fight Coetzee was part of the reason he bolted to the IBF, but it was for $$$ not some notion that he was fighting and beating the best.

But, by squeezing in two easy payday defenses before he bolted/was stripped (while Page was the #1 Contender), it was obvious he was all about the $$ and not facing the best competition.

Also, he knew that as IBF champion, that organization would bend over backwards for him and let him pick and choose who he fought.

 

Blame the system.

Larry was the real champion by 1979 even by Ring Magazine estimation. If he had of had all the belts, and I think he should have because the WBA had no reason not to include Holmes in a pairing for their recognition after Ali retired, the rest of the top ten would have fought each other as contenders rather than as "belt holders".

In an earlier time, To challenge Holmes Tate would have fought Weaver in an eliminator. C00ney would have fought Weaver in an eliminator. Dokes would have had to fight either Weaver or c00ney before challenging Holmes. Page would have fought Witherspoon in order to challenge Holmes.

In other words most of them had to take fights they lost or would/could have lost just to fight Holmes. The reality was during the 1980s most fighters not called Tyson or Holmes were no better than Renaldo Snipes.

Now that's not to say Larry was not naughty for shouting his mouth off and taking weak fights among his challengers. He did.

Joe Louis and Joe Frazier took simular fights.

I dont know what Page did to be a more of pressing challenger than Tim Witherspoon, Berbick or David Bey to become a real #1 contender in actual undisputed terms. People have tried to explain this too me but I have never been convinced. Coetzee was the better fight at that time because he beat Dokes.

 

Please, just stop.

Using Gerrie Coetzee as a Holmes excuse not fighting Page is getting old and is plain BS.

Holmes signed an agreement to fight Page in August before Coetzee had even fought Dokes ffs. He had signed another one even earlier but it was sat down on again.

The other champion was Dokes, not Coetzee, and believe you me Coetzee was not the Ring number 1 when all this went down. As a matter of fact he was a very sizable underdog going into a fight with Dokes with very little fanfare. Little did everyone know Dokes was hitting the cocaine as much as the heavy bag but that's a story for another time.

Surely, surely, you can understand the above? It is very simple, easy to follow and undeniable.

As for this fantasy that Holmes had been laying in wait to fight for the WBA title well

He'd had years to worry about unifications but never shown any interest in fighting Weaver again.

He'd also stated, when Coetzee was a contender, that he would never fight that "goddamn South African"!!! He cited moral grounds.

All of a sudden Coetzee wins a title and the match is worth millions and millions and Holmes is keen as must-ard to fight him!!!

What an absolute rort. Didn't want a piece of him on contender money.

 

When was this great string of Greg Page dominance ?

He got his ass kick before a world wide audience losing a lopsided decision to Trevor Berbick on the Holmes ****ey undercard, the same Berbick Holmes clearly beat. That was supposed to be his big coming out party and it was a flop.

IN the fifteen months that followed he fights two mid range contenders, Tillis ( just beaten up by Thomas ) and Snipes (previously stopped by Holmes ) , looks ok but nothing great and fights two journeymen .. then he looses to Witherspoon in a terribly boring fight more remembered for bra jokes than anything else .. then he loses to Bey who Holmes then fights and beats .. he then gets a shot no one even follows against Coetzee in SA, wins and then loses his next foght to Tubbs in another snorefest ..

Page was a highly touted amateur most noted for pulling out of fihts against Telefilo Stevenson in head to heads w Cuba and an under achiever as a pro ..

 

:good

Great post I cannot agree more.

People put too much credence on the governing bodies. Before they were around a Champion beat the last champion then (if there was one) he fought the leading contender. The leading contender being the other guy who could actually beat rated guys besides the champion himself and there have never actually been that many that can actually do this. Between times all champions kept busy against the same kinds of guys that everyone fought.

Those belts were just belts. Larry was the champion regardless because he was the one heavyweight who could string wins together at world level. Nobody else did.

Having a belt comes with a load of rules to justify the sanctioning fees. When you have two belts you have extra justification within the same set of fighters. Everything is diluted then amplified. If there isn't a leading contender then one gets made up.

What on earth ever made John Tate a leading contender? Once Tate had a belt to defend leading contenders need to be found for him as well as Holmes even though whoever beats him is only beating a 20-0 kid. This was where the level was set, a nice young guy just cutting his teeth as a contender. Learning on the job. The division and the quality of the contenders is entirely watered down to supply twice the championship fights than is necessary.

There were only ever a handful of guys who performed the kind o standout results that made anybody ever look second best to Larry. Shavers knocking out Norton. Coetzee Knocking out Spinks. ****ey knocking out Noton and stopping Young. Thomas beating Witherspoon. That's it.

I repeat, I dont know what Page did to be a more of pressing challenger than Tim Witherspoon, Berbick or David Bey to become a real #1 contender in actual undisputed terms. People have tried to explain this too me but I have never been convinced.

Coetzee was the better fight at that time because he beat Dokes.

 

Don't waste your time Saad, it's gotta be a gee up

 

Scott getting a "shot' against Holmes is no worse than Ali giving Chuck Wepner a shot at the Title.

In the Heavyweight Division, you just don't know what might happen.

 

Scott getting a shot isn't an issue. Nor other mugs in isolation. They all have them. The trouble is a truckload of lesser fighters in a row with no top fighters in the spread through, and there was definitely better.