This is something I've been thinking hard about recently. I routinely see Ali rated in the top 5 of All time P4P lists and never out of the top 10. Arguello, while he gets plenty of credit on H2H matchups and has a lofty ranking himself in the grand scheme of things, rarely cracks the top 20 and is usually found in the 35-25 range. Like a grizzled consumer, I'm just not buying that kind of disparity - so the mission to you, Classic Forum, is to sell me on what makes Ali the fighter's accomplishments that much better than Alexis'. Here's my case: Pros for Arguello: 1. 3 division champion who never lost those titles in the ring- he always vacated as "the man" to move up to bigger challenges. 2. Of the 3+ division champions, Arguello has the 2nd most successful title defenses (16). 3. 19-3 in title fights, with 17 KO's. The 3 losses were in his very first title fight, and his final two against Pryor (the first of which is seriously tainted) 4. Fought 14 current, former, or future champions in his career, beating 12 of them. 10 were by knockout. 5. Was still a beltholder level fighter at 140 even at retirement- he stopped former 140 titlist Billy Castillo in 4 in his final fight before taking an 8 year hiatus. 6. Unbeaten at Superfeatherweight and only lost one close decision at Lightweight, going a combined 25-1 with 19 KO's. 14-0 in title fights between these 2 divisions. Only 2 men lasted the distance. Your move. :!:
I dont have time to go into in that kind of detail but.... Ali presided over, cleaned out and more or less dominated a very strong era of the heavyweight division. Wins over some of the true heavyweight greats like Liston, Foreman, Patterson and Frazier...often in very dominate and impressive fashion. Wins over top 15 alltime great Archie Moore and IMO top 70 alltime fighter in Bob Foster certainly help his cause to be over Alexis. There is no doubting he is one of the best boxing talents to lace them up and his in the ring dominance over a variety of challengers over more then a decade at the top of the heavyweight heap is all there for everyone to see. In a rushed conclusion...He was a better fighter, better in a H2H sense and showed a greater ability to overcome different styles..IMO beat the better fighters and generally in more impressive fashion. Therefore I feel not only he is the better fighter overall, he also has a superior resume putting him firmly into the top 5-15 alltime range.
Arguello has all the better numbers, but the one stat Ali has in his favor is perhaps the biggest of all, which is quality of opposition. He twice toppled a supposedly "unbeatable" champion to win a title (Liston and Foreman), he won 2 out of 3 against another ATG HW (Frazier), and for whatever it's worth, also beat HOFer Norton, although those decisions were controversial. Also has the distinction of being the first man to win the HW title three times (and perhaps the only man, if you only look at real lineal titles), and he accomplished that feat somewhere close to the age of 40. Having said that, I don't know that I necessarily do put Ali over Arguello. :think Arguello was one of the best jr. lightweight-sized fighters ever IMO.
Here's some STATS: Ali fought a total of 38 bouts against boxers that were rated in the top 10 at the time he fought them in his 61 bouts, 62.295%, winning 33, 54.098%. Arguello fought a total of 19 bouts against boxers that were rated in the top 10 at the time he fought them in his 90 bouts, 21.11111%, winning 16, 16.67%. Ali fought 38 different boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another a total of 49 times in his 61 bouts, 80.3%. Arguello fought 32 different boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another a total of 35 times, 38.89%. Ali was rated in the top 10 from March 1962 to November 1980 for a total of 206 months. Arguello was rated in the top 10 from March 1974 to June 1986 for a total of 116 months.
You also need to look at intangibles like iconic status and what part they played in boxing and social history. Both were iconic figures, but Ali was the biggest icon in sports history. Both had big parts in boxing history, Ali was a fixture in boxing's premier mainstream division for nearly 20 years; Arguello the last man to have a legitimate challenge, to try and win four World Championship at different weights. Both Ali and Arguello had major parts to play in political battles in their home countries. I think though as far as intangibles goes, Ali has an edge, add this to the evidence given above, it shows that Ali has to been considered the Greater fighter.
Because Ali won the linear world title three time, defended it 19 times, and fought the best the heavyweight division had to offer. The same can't be said of Arguello, who held alphabelt titles, one of which was a junior title. Olivares was pretty much through as a fighter. Jim Watt and Ray Mancini are not in the league of Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, or George Foreman. Arguello is great. Don't get me wrong. But he's no Ali.
I don't spend much time ranking fighters as it gives me headaches so I just stick to enjoying all of them but I don't think I'd have these far apart.
I would have rated Arguello in top 5 pfp before he lost to Aaron Pryor. He was a great, great fighter, but a lot of his seeming invincibility came from his big height advantage in the lower weight classes. http://www.amazon.com/Joe-Gans-Biography-American-Champion/dp/0786439947/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b
I have Ali in my top 5 easily, the guy was a great fighter with some mega names on his record, he achieved a lot. You might have been expecting some more info but Im proper tired right now & off to log out.... this Ali Arguallo **** aint over by a long way, I`ll be back.
True, but that's also something worth mentioning for Ali as well for you and others who use that as a determining factor. Muhammad routinely was the bigger man in his fights; Norton and Foreman were 2 of the exceptions in that they were about the same size as Ali. The height advantage may not have been as big as it was in some of Arguello's cases, but giving up 3 inches and 10-15 lbs to Ali certainly didn't make his opponents' lives any easier on top of what they were already up against. As to your first point, I still wonder what would've happened to this day and how history could've changed if it weren't for Panama ****ing Lewis and that bottle. I know there was the rematch and all, but Arguello already had a ton of miles on him before Pryor I, and that was his last, best chance at taking out a rabid,tough champ square in his prime. Water under the bridge, I suppose.
