SEMIFINALS: The All-time Heavyweight H2H Tourney: VITALI vs. ALI

so you can't give me these fights where Frazier used his right hand regularly, or where Ali proved he didn't have poor timing and accuracy??

do it. do it now. or be seen as someone who is talking nothing but rubbish.

it's not hard. you DOINK.

 

assasin,

Thanks for the reply.

Ali had bad balance? Ali's footwork was fantastic in his mid 20's. He drew guys in, made them miss, then countered with combinations before getting back out of range. He was up on his toes, constantly moving. He was never a stationary target. He got clipped a few times, but as a whole, he was extremely hard to hit clean when prime. Vitali would have had a nightmare trying to set himself. Also, Vitali wouldn't have had a reach advantage. Their reaches were practically the same.

Your first sentence is ridiculous. Vitali's size advantage would have been minimal. How could Ali's left hook have been shut down, due to a 1' reach advantage, and only a few inches in height? You're talking as though Ali was a small MW. Ali was a big man. How would Vitali have coped with Ali's footwork? Ali had excellent timing and reflexes.

Ali would never have gone near the ropes if he'd have fought Vitali at 25.

Every fighter has different circumstances, and is confronted with different styles to overcome. Vitali has shown he can fight in the centre of the ring? But who against? Nobody that moved like Ali. The majority of Ali's fights were in the centre of the ring when he was young.

I can't see it. I can't envisage how Vitali could have repeatedly set himself to land any significant damaging shots. Ali would have been up on his toes, moving in all directions.

Ali had a very good defence in his prime. In the 70's, he took awful punishment both in training and in the ring. You keep talking about Vitali's punches, but don't seem to realise how important Ali's footwork would have been. Ali's footwork had the key to win any fight against any HW in history. Now I could honestly envisage Vitali beating and hurting a version of Ali from the mid to late 70's. But in his prime, he wouldn't have needed to try and shut Vitali's punches down. Because in my honest opinion, they'd have been few and far between. Vitali would have been more concerned with Ali, rather than vice versa.

Vitali has never fought anybody, that possessed the footwork of a peak Ali.

Ali would have had the edge in:

Footwork, timing, reflexes, hand speed and shot variation. (combinations)

There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Vitali would have had everything covered. That's absurd.

You can't tell me how he'd have coped with Ali's speed of hand and foot.

I could ask the same question regarding Vitali. But it's not about class, it's about overcoming certain styles. Styles make fights. For example, Frazier was a pressure fighter, that caused Ali lots of problems. He was relentless. I think if they'd have fought in 67, Ali would have won, but he'd have had his hands full. Frazier would always have caused Ali problems. Just like Foreman would always have crushed Frazier. When Ali met Foreman, people thought that he'd be destroyed, because Foreman beat the guy who caused Ali problems. That's why triangle theories don't always work. In my opinion, even though Foreman was stronger than Frazier, and would always have beaten him, Ali would always have struggled more against Frazier. (Forget the Jungle, Ali wouldn't have gone near the ropes when prime.)

So for me, it's all about styles. Ali may not have fought anyone like Vitali, but he didn't have problems with big, powerful men in his prime. He also beat big, powerful men past prime. What troubled Ali was relentless pressure and speed. Vitali isn't fast, and he wouldn't have got close enough to Ali in my opinion. Again, he's never fought anyone that had the same movement as Ali, and there's nothing to suggest that he could have timed him and closed him down. If there is, then show me.

Ali definitely held more advantages in my opinion.


http://youtu.be/jkhpZoPOfZI


Ali was unconventional and he had technical defensive flaws.

But his speed could offset anyone.

 

ALi fought and beat atleast 7-8 fighters better than V
Klit...trust!

 

Oh right, um, Frazier threw multiple right hands in ALL of his fights, pretty much like 99% of all boxers. What YOU consider 'regular' is of no consequence. If he throws at least a few every round of every fight then THAT IS REGULAR.

Ali proved to have excellent timing and accuracy in MOST OF HIS FIGHTS. Pick ANY ALI VICTORY in his twenties and early 30's.

It isn't hard.....

What you can 'do...and do it now" is find me a Joe Frazier fight where he DOESN'T throw right hands. Because that IS EXACTLY what you've said he does a few times (when EXAGGERATING the poor qualities of Ali's competition).

It's not hard....you complete doink and BTW you STILL haven't given ANYONE that agrees with your 'Ali had $hit timing' quote earlier.......

 

@Loudon

it's a well known fact that Ali had bad balance, especially when he was in punching range.

also, my point stands about Ali getting plenty of hands put on him against Cooper and Jones. why? well, they weren't world class were they? if they were, you'd have a point. they were a British and Euro belt holder who never beat a world class foe, and a journeyman. so it stands. it's in tune with the Theme of Ali getting rocked, dropped and beat up in large parts of his fights.

Vitali has never had a problem setting his feet to fire off. never. neither did most of Ali's opposition when they were up against him either.

Vitali would have the reach advantage due to Ali not being in position enough to make the most of it. he'd be trying to move in and out, not setting himself at the right distance to keep Vitali at the end of his shots. but Vitali would do that. just as he always does. Ali would find it hard to get his timing and distance right with Vitali keeping his left out there and keeping him off balance. and you know that too.

tell me how Ali gets his left hook off when that jab is keeping him at distance?? he'd have to put himself close enough to get it off. but he also puts himself in range to be hit with the harder artillery. and he sure as hell isn't winning that battle at close range. don't be so bloody stupid, man.

Ali didn't have great timing and reflexes. he missed many shots when firing combinations when against anyone other than a scrub or finished fighter. and he got hit more than most bloody fighters, so no, his reflexes weren't that good either. what fights did he show these gifts?? i must have missed those ones.

Ali would have no choice but to go to the ropes. Vitali would drive him back and put him there. you do know that Vitali isn't slow of foot like most of Ali's opposition don't you? don't you?? plus, like i said in the other post, Ali recoils with his hands up when he missed shots. it was just part of his style. so if he's going to recoil, he's doing so into the ropes.

look, Ali fights off the back foot and the back foot only. he doesn't fight well in any other way unless he wants to leave himself more vulnerable than he usually is to shots. and by the fact that he gets hit a lot, he doesn't want to be doing that.
so if Vitali takes centre ring and waits to pick off Ali as he circles and looks to step in, everyone knows that the jab shuts down speed and movement. with the jab that Vitali had, Ali is finished. he won't prove to be successful in those areas.

Ali didn't have many styles to overcome either. they came in the most basic of form. so don't talk your usual ****.

regardless of which direction Ali moved in, he got hit a damn lot. again, stop being boring and talking ****. your version of Muhammad Ali didn't exist.

Ali didn't have great defence in his prime. don't talk ****. also, most of the time like i said, they were jokes that he fought. which fighters were these world class Heavies in his prime that showed his ability? every fighter looks good against decent opposition until they move up in class and get found wanting in EVERY area. just like Ali.

i asked you to break it down to me on how Ali supposedly shuts Vitali's punches down, and you came back with a load of worthless fluff like usual.
tell me in what way does Ali slip the jab? don't say movement and speed, that's not an answer. break it down technically. how does he shut Vitali's great foot work down? how? break it down technically.
how does he manage to not get hit by a great fighter with size and reach, when he wasn't able to do it against small and basic fighters? you're not giving real answers. you're just writing a load of nonsense that breaks nothing down or how he does it.

Ali's footwork was the key to beating any Heavy in history? LOL. which fight proved this?? give me names? just more deluded ****.

i never said that Vitali faced anyone with the footwork of a prime Ali. just that he has faced movers like Hide, Johnson and Adamek. he dominated in these positions. i'm not saying this proves he beats Ali, just that it proves he deals well with movement. you have nothing to suggest he doesn't do you?? if so, give me names.

just because Ali moves a lot, doesn't mean he had better footwork that Vitali. Vitali was always in position to dominate when he used his footwork. when did Ali do that with his??

i've told you how he shuts Ali's shots down.

Vitali has two choices in dealing with Ali's footwork (for the 3rd time now) either he keeps centre ring and picks off Ali when he moves in. or he walks him down, which Vitali has proven to be very good at.
if you think that Cooper, Frazier, Jones etc etc get into range to get plenty of shots off being as basic as they are, but Vitali with his reach, size, footwork, timing and control of distance doesn't, then you're sniffing some seriously strong glue.

and yes, Ali was in his prime when he returned to the ring. he may have put weight on, but that was on him. him not being in the prime of his life at 27 is ridiculous in the extreme. what evidence do you have that men in the 70's were out of prime at this age?? give me evidence or shut up. i don't want to read your usual slant on things to suit your argument, i want solid evidence.

every style seemed to trouble Ali, not just one or two. regardless of style and skill, Ali got lots put on him. end of story. nothing you say will change that.

and when did Cooper, Jones, Norton, Young and the like, have a style of "relentless speed and pressure"? what are you talking about???? you didn't need those attributes to get to Ali with big success. all you had to be it seemed, was be decent and have at least some mobility. Ali's career proves this. not the one that exists in your head.

you used the argument that Calzaghe didn't have good defence because he got clipped with a few right hands by world class fighters over the duration of his career. but here you are saying that Ali had good defence even though he got some beatings by basic, non world class fighters. even the world class guys he fought were bloody basic. so you're a hypocrite as usual. same old, same old with you. it's a waste of time trying to discuss certain fighters and match ups because you always see things that don't exist to suit your bloody agenda. it's bloody boring.

 

Didn't read the whole post but felt the need to let you know just months before Ali fought the (the Ring magazine February 1963) both Cooper and Jones were in fact world class fighters. Cooper was ranked 10, Jones 3. Ali was ranked just ahead of Jones. Both fighters had previously beaten top 10 ranked Zora Folley

 

the day i take notice of what the ring say, is the day i lose all my common sense. never going to happen.

they weren't world class fighters. not even remotely coming close to being so. even with them beating Folley.

Folley won the first fight against Jones by decision i think.

Copper got knocked out in the early rounds (can't remember which. i'll have to look at Boxrec) in the rematch.

it's neither here nor there for the pair of them.

 

just looked at Boxrec...

Cooper got knocked out in the 2nd.

Folley did win the first by decision against Jones.

 

If you're beating other top 10 fighters there and are ranked by the premiere source in boxing at the time you're world class. I think many of the fighters today are not elite given their skills, but can I really say they're not world class when those below them are even worse?

 

Which is more than Charr and many, many more of Vits opponents had done. Its okay to fight guys who never stepped in with other top 10 comp, but not okay to fight guys who were? That makes no sense at all my man.

 

what other top ten or world class fighters did Jones and Cooper beat? :think

 

you'd have a point if i considered Charr to be a world class fighter. he isn't. i've never once claimed he was.

he could prove himself better than what we think he is if he gets more fights against some of the better fighters in the division and beats them. but until then... he's not.

 

Cooper beat Miteff, Harris and Erskine. Who did Charr beat?

 

Okay. Was Sander really a world class fighter or did he catch lightning in a bottle once? He never beat a top 10 fighter before or after Wlad.

 

and Jones stopped ATG Foster.

You are also correct that he stopped Foley, assassin is talking **** as usual telling you that you are wrong.