SEMIFINALS: The All-time Heavyweight H2H Tourney: VITALI vs. ALI

What a bs-biased poll-result...
As if that glass-chinned bum Ali had any chance of even surviving the first 3 rounds without getting ktfo by Big Vittles...atsch

 

assasin,

It's a well known fact that Ali at his peak had fantastic footwork, with great balance, timing and reflexes. Ali did not get beat up in large parts while prime. He underestimated Henry Cooper when he was a young, brash Cassius Clay. He was also young, when he fought Doug Jones who was a fast, former LHW fighter. He was only 21 years old, and he was fighting every 1-2 months at that point. He'd only had about 18 fights, before he fought those guys. He hadn't fully matured. Yet you see this as some sort of evidence that he couldn't have beaten Vitali at his best?

He's never had trouble setting himself against who? He's never fought anybody that came close to having the footwork of Ali. In my opinion, he couldn't have set himself against a moving target like that, who would have circled him, and would have jumped in and out of range in a flash. Ali was a different fighter in the 70's, that was much easier to hit. That's why he used to let his sparring partners deliberately pound away on him in training. Do you seriously think that Vitali could have just kept his left hand out there?

Why are you assuming that Vitali would have kept him at a distance? Ali could have tagged him and then got out of range. Vitali was bigger, heavier and slower than Ali. Ali would have had a huge advantage in hand speed and foot speed.

WTF are you talking about?? Go and watch some footage from the 60's. He barely got hit in many fights. His reflexes weren't good? In the 60's? You're joking!

Ali only went near the ropes when he was past his best in the 70's, when he didn't have the stamina to dance for a scheduled 15 rounds. He didn't have the legs at that stage. Vital couldn't have just drove him there, because Ali's movement at 25, would have caused him a variety of problems.

Ha! How many more times? He didn't get hit A LOT when he was in his prime. A mid 60's Ali compared to a 70's Ali = Two completely different fighters. How could Vitali have simply 'just picked him off'? Ali would have been up on his toes, dancing, and feinting left and right, looking to make Vitali commit to something, so he'd have been ready to counter. I don't even think you've seen Ali fight at his peak.

Not at all. He faced many different styles, and all you're doing his playing down his opposition and disrespecting them. I've read your comments on Foreman and Frazier. Do you not think that those two would have had success in today's era? We saw Wlad go life and death with Sam Peter, so don't tell me that someone like Frazier would have been a walk over for both brothers. Once again, Ali did NOT get hit a LOT in his PRIME.

Of course he had a great defence in his prime. It was unconventional like Roy's was. His footwork and his reflexes made him exceptionally hard to hit clean when prime. How many times was he dropped or hurt in the 60's? How many times was he hit clean? Tell me. Who were the joke fighters he fought? Let's get things straight, it's a fact that Ali beat good fighters like Frazier, Foreman and Norton etc, when past prime. Again, I'm sure those guys would have success in today's era of HW boxing.

It's practically impossible for me to try and get technical with you, because you're not willing to take anything on board. You think that Ali's left hook would have been shut down completely due to Vitali having a one inch reach advantage. You also think that the fight would have been a complete mismatch with Ali taking a beating. So I don't know what else I can say, that I haven't already said previously. You don't seem to have any idea about the importance of Ali's footwork, and how hard it would have been for Vitali to have overcome that constant movement.

 

Part 2.

Ali's footwork would have given any HW in history problems. He was arguably the fastest HW ever. Yes, Vitali's faced movers. But again, what evidence do you have, to come to the conclusion that it would have been a horrible mismatch and a beating for Ali? Your only evidence seems to consist of Ali's fights with Cooper and Jones when he was a 21 year old just starting out, and the fact that Frazier beat him. You've offered nothing else.

Of course he had better footwork than Vitali. I don't know how you can even argue against that. Again, it seems obvious to me, that you've never even watched the version of Ali that I'm discussing. He also had faster hands, better reflexes, and threw better combinations, also using more variation.

Your argument is so WEAK!


Once again:


1. When did Ali fight Cooper and Doug Jones? When he was 21, after he'd only had 18 fights.

2. Does Vitali fight ANYTHING like Cooper or Doug Jones, who was a fast, former LHW? The answer is NO!

3. When did Ali fight Frazier? When he was past his absolute peak, the one that I'm discussing here.

4. Did Vitali fight ANYTHING like Joe Frazier? NO!


I've just crushed your so called evidence.


By the way, did you know that Doug Jones would have been a SMW had the division existed in the 60's?

Go and watch some footage of him.

He wasn't the same fighter as he was before the lay off, and if you knew anything about Ali, you'd know this. Fighters age differently. Go and ask any knowledgeable fan when Ali's peak was, and they'll tell you that it was just prior to his ban in 67, when he was 25. This is common knowledge. Ali aged very quickly. He was an old 32 year old when he beat Foreman in 74.

I don't even know what to say. I'm sick of repeating myself. Ali did not get a lot put on him, when he was prime. This fantasy fight is based on both fighters being at their best.

Why are you yet again talking about Cooper, Jones and Norton? What's wrong with you? Cooper caught a young Clay off guard. Jones was a fast fighter. Norton fought Ali when Ali was old, and when he shouldn't really have been fighting. Go and watch some footage of peak Ali. Go and educate yourself.

ALI HAD A GOOD DEFENCE IN HIS PRIME!

It's a waste of time trying to discuss anything with me? It's you who's said the following nonsense:


1. Vitali would have shut down Ali's jab because of his reach advantage. (1 inch)

2. Vitali would have won, because Cooper, Jones, Frazier and Norton caused him problems.

3. It would have been a complete mismatch, and Ali would have gotten a beating.


So I'm sat here wondering why I've bothered to submit this long reply to you.


Go and watch some footage of Ali at his best, and then come back to me with a logical argument to support your theories.


Thanks.

 

@ Loudon...

i was going to reply, but know it's another waste of time. you don't give answers, you just wash over things. it then just goes back and forth with no reason to it.

so i'm out.

you keep your delusional ways of thinking. i'll continue to see you for what you are.

 

What a pathetic response.

You should be ashamed of yourself!

 

The latter.

He had good power and hand speed, and was left handed which added to his unpredictability. There wasn't a whole lot other than that. His skills and ring smarts weren't all that great. His footwork, variety of punches, ring generalship, defense....anything about those that were really any good. He got hit with the same shots from Rahman over and over again. The beating he took against Vitali causes many to overrate his chin.

 

no, it's a smart response.