Send in a featherweight to beat Salvador Sanchez

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by fists of fury, May 29, 2021.


  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Pep definitely did win most of the exchanges on the outside, but he was getting hurt all the while. he was outlanding Saddler, and with good shots too. The problem was that these shots affected Saddler hardly at all, while the punches he was lashing Pep with were totally misery-makers. Saddler said he could "see in [Pep's] eyes" what these punches meant. What Saddler excelled at, especially illustrated by his series with Pep, but i'd say true elsewhere in his career, was making the environment so hostile at the opponent's preferred range that they ended up losing to him on the inside. It's not even that case that Sadldler "smothering his own work inside" (something I've never seen on film in opposition to his working as well one-handed as any fighter post 1930) would prevent him from moving the fight on to a a different kind of infighting later in the fight by virtue of the fact that he is so enormously underrated and hard to fight on the outside.

    This is demonstrably untrue though. He can be seen throwing and landing shots, with his reach, from the outside. The second phase was often inside, but he's got no problem fighting Pep inside, so so what?

    What has to be recognised is that Saddler is throwing and landing lead-right-hands to the body - literally the most dangerous shot in the sport to attempt to land - against the single greatest defensive fighter ever to have lived (Arguably at the very least) without being countered. One of two things is happening here. Either Pep isn't anything like as good as we think - or Saddler is outfighting him in spells from the outside to land fight-ending punches. It's clearly the second and it's clear that he doesn't get enough recognition for this.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  2. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    You could be the best US am since Andre Ward? Go sit your ass down.
     
  3. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Yes, that's exactly what I said and I was being one hundred percent literal.
     
  4. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    He'd literally be the best southpaw, best am, and fastest fighter Sanchez ever fought.
     
  5. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    And he'd still get schooled :lol:
     
  6. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    Lol the only yes only guy on this entire forum that acts like a tough guy is you. You must lack confidence or it's your way of getting back at all the boys and girls that beat your ### back in high school
     
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  7. Young Terror

    Young Terror ★ Griselda ★ Full Member

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    Put the pipe down fool.
     
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  8. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    I don't think this would happen if it were Sal in there. He's much tougher than Pep, and has a much harder dig on him.
    I agree, it's an incredible ability and one I struggle to liken to other fighters. It's why I'm a big appreciator of that style of fighters - same with the Bivins/McLarnin types, too.
    I have to be honest pal, I've always thought Saddler's primary weakness (aside from a slight Medel/Toney-esque tendancy to turn up and not give a ****) is that he smothers his own work too much. I haven't seen any footage of Sandy that would lead me to think otherwise. Even in the Pep fight, he often gets too close to do anything but illegally maul Pep.
    He can be seen landing shots from the outside. But none of it was the stuff that really jarred Pep and wore him down, apart from these straight rights to the body which he threw "on the way in, approaching mid-range". Out-fighting Pep in short spells is impressive, but it isn't why he won. He'd have moments of success on the outside, vs Sanchez, as well. Sal would have moments of success, on the inside, vs Saddler. I don't think this is a big enough factor to sway the result, because I don't think it was a large factor in the Pep fights.

    To me, the outside exchanges in that fight look a little like Chavez-Taylor. Pep - or Meldrick, in this analogy - wins most exchanges at his preferred range, but has to 'carry that punch around with him', leading to Saddler - Chavez - breaking him down and setting up the stuff up close. But given that he had nothing to worry about from Pep's power, and he had the power to break Pep down, that worked. I doubt it would work on Sanchez.

    Anyway, I can see we're essentially at an impasse (unless you're willing to admit defeat :naughty2:) and I'm sure we can agree that this is a very close fight, between two ATGs. :thumbsup:
     
  9. tinman

    tinman Loyal Member Full Member

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    The Erik Morales who looked godly against Paulie Ayala at 126 could have outboxed him over 15. He was skilled. This goes the cards. Sanchez is not stopping Morales.

    Erik was faster of hand and foot than Sanchez. Taller with a longer reach. If he executes the gamelan Morales outpoints him.
     
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  10. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I disagree, but I did appreciate your take.
     
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  11. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Love Erik. But he is beating neither Chava nor the version of Azumah that lost to Chava
     
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  12. tinman

    tinman Loyal Member Full Member

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    Matter of perspective. I see a slower, shorter man that would be vulnerable. If Sanchez fights Morales on Erik's terms (mid range) he gets outboxed. Question is can he get inside to nullify Morales length and speed advantage?
     
  13. Jpreisser

    Jpreisser Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I would send in Pep, for sure. Sanchez was a helluva fighter but he showed enough weaknesses in the Castillo and Cowdell fights, two out-boxer types, for me to favor a far superior slickster in the "Will o' the Wisp".
     
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  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    That is definitely not proven. Pep was stopped by just one man in anything like his prime and that was by Saddler. Pep fought in 200 more contests than Sanchez. 200. Pep was stopped a total of six times, one or two of them were dives (probably), three of them were Saddler, and one was a proper KO for sure. IMO, Pep is tougher than Sal - though this wasn't proven entirely, because we just didn't see Sanchez in there with a monster like Saddler. But claiming Sal Sanchez was proven tougher than Willie Pep is highly questionable at best. Personally, I think your flat-out wrong.

    That's true, but it wouldn't make any difference here. Saddler was down a few times, but for the most part he wasn't bothered by punches. He's in the running for GOAT chin - 160 fights, one quit job in his third pro bout or something. Never knocked out, and he was matched from bantamweight to light-welterweight.

    Well that's not what I see at all.

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    5:20 they enter a bonafide clinch, a flat out grab and grapple, and still, as the referee steps in to separate them Saddler extracts a hand and lands two punches at bell.
    5:35 they up-down clinch with Pep low, Saddler lands a sneaky, grazing uppercut. The referee warns Pep on the break, probably for heads.
    6:00 Saddler ties pep up moves him back, lands a horrible punch to the body.

    That's the minute of the highlights I watched from the above. Pep was the one who was completely smothered. He threw no shots in these exchanges. Saddler was excellent at extracting one hand in clinches and using it to work. He practiced it and he was good at it.

    Well we're just seeing wildly different things here - either way, it's clear to me Saddler was doing the more hurtful work on the outside and it is clear he was doing serious work on the inside. I can't understand the meaning of "on the way in approaching mid range" as it doesn't help to explain at all how Saddler was landing these punches he's throwing lead right hands to the body against a genius and landing them, without feinting. The point is, this is effective, dramatic use of reach, however you personally want to describe it and it mattered and would matter against Sanchez.
    I don't think it would be a close fight at all.

    One of Sanchez's tougher fights in the ring was against Pat Ford. Ford was 5'10, bigger than Saddler, and had a longer reach, too, but Saddler enjoys these advantages (height and reach) over Sanchez also. Ford won the first half of that fight pretty much indisputably. He did it with a counter right-hand to the body (Saddler's is better), harassed him with a virtual jab (Saddler's use of reach was better), improvised long uppercuts (Saddler's improvised punching was better), and basically by sneaking very hard body punches from distance. This is what Saddler excelled at, specifically, and he was a genius veteran whereas Ford was 16-0.

    Then you have the additional layer of Saddler's warring clinches and infighting skills.

    I think Saddler would run away with it early. Ford emerged from the first seven with Sanchez 5-2 down I think; he would be doing well to manage this against Saddler, but he might make it. The bottom line though is when he comes to out-monster Saddler down the stretch, like he did with Ford, and so many others, he would not like what he gets. Saddler scored more than twice as many knockouts as Sanchez had fights. Saddler is the puncher here. I don't think he could out-hit Saddler down the stretch and if he comes inside, he gets baked. He's fighting far and away the more tiring fight of the two, moving and staking out ground against a swarmer-puncher.

    Early part of the fight all Saddler; late part of the fight might be split. A stoppage victory for Saddler not beyond the realms of possibility if, and only if, Sanchez decides he wants to punch his way to victory rather than lose it on the cards. Maybe.

    I think Saddler is a literal disaster for Sanchez stylistically, a bit of a butcher's stone. I won't insist that Saddler is better (though he is inarguably greater) but I don't think Sanchez could beat him in five tries. Just the wrong man, and the right answer to this question.
     
  15. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    No, we actually saw him in with an even harder hitter than Saddler. Lopez didn't land much, but he did get in enough shots to know Sanchez could take his power. And so did both Nelson and Gomez, who're also great punchers - as you know.

    I didn't think there was any debate about who's tougher. Especially when the reason Pep was stopped so few times is likely down to his defence, in a Loughran-esque manner.
    Maybe we are. I'm not seeing this hurtful work. If anything, I'm seeing him getting plastered by Pep at range. For the most part, he seemed out of his depth until he moved it inside. I agree his use of reach would matter vs Sal, just nowhere near as much as you do. He only started to landed effective shots vs Pep when he was moving in - I don't understand what's tripping you up there - and him doing that vs Sanchez is begging to be countered. I
    think Saddler's abysmal defence is more of an important factor than Saddler's decent work at long-range.
    Poor comparison. Saddler fought absolutely nothing like Ford, and Ford's success came solely from being rangier and refusing to engage. Saddler's hardly gonna refuse to lead vs Sanchez.