Send in an ATG to beat Prime Liston (mid to late 50's version)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BrutalForeman, Jul 2, 2019.

  1. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Maybe because the guy who broke his jaw weighed about a buck 50. That may have helped him get to the finish line.
     
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  2. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    That jab would be a huge hurdle for Evander. Old Foreman hit Holyfield with an alarming# of jabs. According to many on here Old Man Foreman wasn't much.
     
  3. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    On the contrary Liston knocked out a better oppenent than Holyfield ever did. I love Holy but he had to much heart for his own good. It would be his undoing here.
     
  4. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ridiculous. Your 5 year old son hitting you when you have a broken jaw hurts. Let alone a veteran professional fighter.
     
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  5. Gudetama

    Gudetama Active Member Full Member

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    Only Ali.
    Actually, I reckon I'd just about favour Holmes, too (if only 55/45 or 60/40).
    Beast.
     
  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Muhammad Ali
    Joe Louis
    Jack Johnson
    Jack Dempsey
    Larry Holmes
    Rocky Marciano
    Vitali Klitschko
    Joe Frazier

    Perhaps even..
    Max Baer
    Lennox lewis
    George Foreman
    Ezzard Charles
    Jersey Joe Walcott
    Gene Tunney
    Evander Holyfield

    Liston did a lot of things very well. I rate him as one of the best outstanding contenders of all time and a great fighter but his tenure as a champion has to be measured with tougher champions who did not crumble when well matched.

    Liston did come through a war with Cleveland Williams... but it was only Cleveland Williams. a guy who the record shows was not ATG championship material. Boxing is all about levels. Greatness is measured against other great fighters and this means can the fighter do all of things against great fighters that he was able to do against the lesser opponents.

    We never saw him against Ingo Johansson, Joe Frazier or Ernie Terrell. Only Ali and Patterson.

    So Liston did not prove he could do all the great things he could do against all the better fighters. Sure he obliterated Patterson, but Floyd offered little resistance and represented one of the smallest and most vulnerable champions of all time. He had already been knocked out at championship level. Sonny himself was knocked out at championship level. So Sonny must be measured against champions who were not knocked out at championship level. He should not get a pass just because he looked so good against guys much smaller than he was.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
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  7. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yes because it would definitely hurt less if your jaw was broken by a smaller man wouldn't it?
     
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  8. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I can give some credence to this ,except for the underlined.
    The following were not "much smaller".
    Wepner 9lbs heavier
    Lincoln 6lbs lighter*
    Clark 4lbs lighter*
    Zech 5lbs heavier
    Besmanoff 9lbs lighter*
    Williams3lbs heavier
    Valdes Same
    DeJohn 7.5lbs lighter*
    Cab Same
    Bethea Same
    Mederos 5lbs lighter*
    Howlett Same
    Lee 7lbs heavier
    Liston did not beat these * men because he was bigger,he beat them because he was better!
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
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  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    But they were not much good either. Valdes and Dejohn were losing fights and only really capable of beating the usual suspects at that time. In the elite/ATG scheme of things Dejohn, Williams and old Valdes are non entities.

    The higher ranked/elite men Sonny beat were Machen, Foley, Harris and Patterson. All smaller. And completely true.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  10. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You say Patterson was one of the smallest and most vulnerable of champions.
    Yet in his fights with Liston he was 6ft and189 and194.5lbs.
    Comparable with;
    Charles 186lbs
    Marciano185lbs
    Dempsey187lbs
    Tunney 189.5lbs
    Schmeling188lbs
    Were they also small and very vulnerable? Or would they only be so against Liston?

    You are one of ,if not the most foremost supporter of Marciano 5'10 185lbs arguing interminably he would be able to compensate his lack of stature speed skill ,in one way or another .
    Yet when confronted by the fact that the following weighed
    Folley 198.5lbs
    Harris 195lbs
    Machen196lbs
    You say Liston had an unfair advantage!
    This is a double standard of breathtaking proportions!
     
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    not as vulnerable as Floyd Patterson, a great fighter but also one who had been kayoed at championship level. Marciano, Dempsey And Tunney never were once they hit that level. Charles And Schmeling were knocked out at championship level but I wouldn’t say they were quite as vulnerable to bigger punchers as Floyd Patterson was after he had already been knocked out by Ingo Johansson. The fact is everyone knew Floyd was a vulnerable champion by then.

    How would you know that I am a supporter of Marciano? I’ve never heard of you. Are you a yet another recently booted poster using another account?

    I’m not saying Sonny always had an unfair advantage at the lower levels. I’m saying he did not get the chance to establish himself against all of the best fighters of his time. There is not the same dominant period.

    He did beat one of the smallest and most vulnerable champions. This is true. Floyd Patterson was shorter than Joe Frazier in every photo of them together and Floyd was knocked down more times than any other champion There is nothing untrue about that if Sonny is being compared with greater fighters with a thicker Resume.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  12. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    1980 Holmes would have aggravated Liston only slightly less than Ali (Larry didn't do as much with his legs and overall wasn't as fast). I also think Larry would have made him far more gun shy because of the heavier weight of his left (heaven forbid Liston gets caught with the uppercut). I see the two having a jabbing match for a couple of rounds, with Holmes coming out not wildly (but notably) better due to the weight of that left. Liston at some point would mightily shake Larry up or even knock him down...then I see Larry either rip the uppercut as Liston comes in and follow up with his usual right hand barrage until a stoppage or simply take him apart with the jab and occasional right till he quits.

    I just can't see Liston taking this. Holmes would have knocked out guys like Patterson too, just not as early as Sonny imo.
     
  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Good post.

    Nobody really credits Larry Holmes with just how many punches he could land on a fighter. Any fighter. His ratio of landing punches was very good, and so was his output. There wasn’t anybody he couldn’t hit.

    He just threw more punches and did not miss much.

    One thing that Sonny Liston appeared to struggle with was getting hit quite so often by Ali. He was not used to it because usually he was hunting guys down and he could reach them before they could reach him. Other fighters develop the ability to exchange and trade with guys because they have to.

    While Sonny had lost one fight with Marshall early in his career and had some other competitive fights early on, he went to prison during the mid 1950s and those experiences were largely forgotten. When he came back to boxing in 1957 it was plain sailing. So much so, The years after beating Eddie Machen 1960 until fighting Ali in 1964 Sonny had not taken that many blows in return.

    Larry had the same reach as Ali. I think a championship Sonny would have been exposed here.
     
  14. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I've read your posts and I was here before, and never booted. Patterson was taller than Frazier and both taller and heavier than Marciano so your point falls on its own sword. Dempsey ,Tunney ,Marciano were never hit by Sonnly Liston.
     
  15. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Liston had 3 rounds of ring work in the previous 3 years,hardly ideal preparation for facing the best heavyweight ever.
     
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