Send in an ATG to beat Prime Liston (mid to late 50's version)

Ali, Holmes, Lennox and Holyfield sound right.

 

Elijah put some phsyco Killers close to Ali. Jerimah Shabezz was the obvious. They made Ali move to Philly so he would be closer to Temple 12. Ali wasn't as free as some may think.

 

That was before their first fight.

 

Yes i see that Bonevena fight mentioned often. You know it must be slim pickings!

 

Excellent choices imo

 

Louis.

 

I'd say that a prime Mike Tyson could.

 

It would be something if he took Wilder life and death and Wilder only won a closely contested SD

 

This is a stretch. Liston is far better than your giving him credit for and while you're minimizing his accomplishments you seem to emphasize his short comings for losing to, all of people, Muhammad Ali.

1) Why isn't Frazier chastised in this manner? He's 1-4 against Ali and Foreman. He never faced Norton, Lyle, Shavers or Young. He was "knocked out at the championship level" as you put it, and his signature win was reversed. Twice.

2) Why is Patterson being written off as the most "vulnerable champions of all time?" Him getting bombed out by Liston is no different than Frazier getting bombed out by Foreman. He picked up some decent wins post Liston, including wins over Machen, Chuvalo, Bonevena; he arguably beat Quarry twice and Ellis only to get the short end on the scorecards taking into account that it was 5 years after he lost to Liston.

 

No I didn’t minimise Sonnys accomplishments because I said he was one of the all time best contenders in history. In one year, 1960, Sonny beat the top three available contenders. So far as I know no other contender has done this. What a wonderful achievement.

Sonny was an overwhelming favourite to beat Ali. Yes Ali became a greater fighter, but he had been flattened in his previous fight by a much smaller fighter and very lucky to salvage a win at that time. So it is not certain that Ali was quite at his best at that time.

Frazier won the biggest fight of that era. Up to facing Foreman there was very little more Frazier could have done. He’d beaten Mathis, Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Chuvalo And Ali. The way things panned out it is obvious Frazier was never the same after the fight he had with Ali.

When Sonnys run ended it was not evident That he was no longer the same. yet Listons rematch with Ali was pitiful. And there were still fights out there for him, yet Sonny did not fight Frazier or Ingemar Johansson or Ernie Terrell.

Of course whilst Sonny was champion he had beaten Folley, Machen, Harris and Williams. But we are forced to make comparisons here.

Why is Patterson the most vulnerable champion? Because Patterson was the most vulnerable champion of all time. No other champion had been knocked down so many times, he was consistently smaller than his challengers (and the rest of the division) and had been emphatically knocked out when he was obliterated by Johansson in their fist fight. Floyd beat just one world heavyweight champion, a guy who only became heavyweight champion because Floyd lost to him. Patterson actually won the heavyweight title by beating the lightheavyweight champion. All of this is unprecedented.

But having said that, Patterson turned out to be a much better ex champion than Liston was. Floyd did seek big fights with the next generation of contenders like Bonavena, Quarry and Ellis. He beat good contenders like Cooper and Machen. Sonny did not seek those kinds of fights as an ex champion. Angelo Dundee offered Sonny a fight with Ellis and he turned it down.

 

This analogy gets so friggin old .. Liston, was 35, or 34, Ali 11 years younger, athletic as hell, and coming into prime. Again, when you start picking apart a fighter at age 35, it's pretty sad .. The thread is Prime Liston(mid to late 50's), not the 35 year old version .. Even to mention it shows how far people have to reach to diminish Liston

 

Marciano disciples fear his name and for good reason.

 

Again, people overestimate Liston's h2h ability in my opinion. People talk as if only God or Ali could beat him. Just silly talk

 

But Liston did not fight in the mid 50s. He was in prison in the mid 50s. Sewing mailbags.

His career started in 1958 proper. His best year was1960, which is beyond the period in question.

So mid to late 1950s is really a pretty untested version.

Between 1961-1964 Sonny fought just four times. There is not a lot to go on.

Nobody is picking apart his age. We are forced to make comparisons here.

 

Absolutely spot on.