sergio martinez win over Serhiy Dzinziruk looks....

We've been over Donaire's recent opposition before but I don't see how it's far more solid than Martinez's. At the very least Dzinziruk>>>Narvaez due simply to the fact that Dzinziruk wasn't physically outgunned anywhere near to the extent that Narvaez was and there was at least a plausible path to victory for him, and I don't think you can really make the case that Barker and Macklin were significantly weaker opponents for Martinez than Vazquez Jr and Mathebula were for Donaire.

 

This for me :deal :bbb

 

Well Narvaez wasn't coming off 2 1/2 years of inactivity, except for an Aussie clubfighter. The size thing doesn't mean much, Donaire and Narvez had long overlapping stints at 112 and 115, and Dz admits he's ineffective at 160. He's tall, but he just came in at 162 which is very light for a sww, despite knowing his opponent would be huge.

I can't quantify how much weaker Barker and Macklin were than the other 2, I'll stick with weaker. They'll be lucky to get a single world belt between the 2 of them. And Donaire beat his better opponents moving up to his 4th division.

 

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It's not like Narvaez had exactly been taking on guys well above the Aussie clubfighter level though.

Donaire in all likelihood had at least 10 pounds on Narvaez on fight night plus significant height and reach advantages. The mere fact that Donaire used to drain to Narvaez's class does not refute the point that Narvaez had no business fighting above 115 and Donaire had no business continuing at 118 the night that fight took place. There's a reason Dzinziruk was merely a 4:1 underdog and Narvaez was 12:1 or in some places 19:1.

I don't see how Macklin would have been any luckier to get the decision vs Sturm and get the WBA belt than Vazquez was to be able to fight for a vacant belt against a Sonsona moving up in weight for the first time.

 

Not nearly as weak as Chavez' win over Zbik then Sturm stopping him handily right after

 

Dzin is better than anyone Chavez Jr has ever fought.

 

Martinez's style since his loss to Margo has matured but i wouldn't say it's completely changed. He still jumps in a little, backs up to the ropes with his hands down to bait his opponent and can be dragged into a close quarter firefight. Martinez will need to avoid getting hit with counters from Chavez Jr during the exchanges especially if he backed up to the ropes which is easier said than done.

 

Narvaez had just beat Nonito sized Seda, which is probably better than any Dz win.

Do you think Donaire Narvaez would have unfolded differently at 112 or 115? You think it's Donaire's fault the fight didn't get made there? He couldn't even get his hands on a full belt at 115, I doubt it was him ducking Vic and Narvaez. Narvaez only took the fight at 118 cause his belt was not on the line.

Alright, so Macklin shoulda beat Sturm, like Gevor or Randy Griffin. Meanwhile Mathebula was robbed of being a 2 time, unified champ against Ring p4p rated Caballero.

 

Seda is smaller than Donaire and Dzinziruk's wins over Santos and Konecny at the very least are more impressive. Though I will concede he was above the clubfighter level, an anomaly for Narvaez's usual level of opposition.

I don't really care if/when Donaire could or should have fought Narvaez; I merely think he was a poor opponent choice at the time and weight Donaire did fight him. The Moreno fight, which failed to happen due to the contractual situations of the two fighters, would have been significantly better, as would have any true bantamweight really

If you want to rate Mathebula higher fine, though you think a heckuva lot more of Caballero and Ndlovu. Donaire's other two opponents still lag in my opinion, and in the case of Narvaez, significantly so.

 

Wait, I thought you conceded the 2 Donaire's opponents are ahead, just not by a lot? Whatever you think of Caballero, he was ranked top 10 p4p by the Ring, trounced PDL, Juanma wouldn't hear his name. By any standard he was a better champ that Sturm.

I guarantee that Vazquez will have a better career than Barker and Macklin (is a better fighter already than both), and these 2 will not match whatever Mathebula's accomplished so far: winning a belt, being robbed by a p4per, and going the distance and winning rounds off another.

Narvaez = Dzinziruk, if Dz was an active champ. At least on paper, based on ring performaces recently Narvaez is better, and does better at 118 than Dz at 160, where he gets knocked out by any of the titleholders.

 

No I was saying even if you have Mathebula>Macklin, something I don't entirely agree with, I don't see how it's any question that Vazquez and especially Narvaez are behind Martinez's opponents.

Don't see see how he's a better fighter at this points and think it's pretty far from certain he'll finish with a better career.

The only reason they wouldn't win a world belt at this point is because middleweight is significantly deeper than super bantam has been for the last 5 years. Both have already won rounds off one top-flight fighter as well.

Cannot disagree with this more and have no idea how you could reach that conclusion at all. Dzinziruk would have beaten Sylvester and Zbik, both titleholders when he fought Martinez, and he certainly wouldn't be stopped by Geale and the N'Jikam/Quillin winner today. I have no idea on what basis you think that Narvaez would have any success at 118 today except for the migration of talent from the division, and even then, I don't see him winning many fights.

Both Dzinziruk and Narvaez could have reasonably be seen as the de facto best fighters in their divisions, but Narvaez was at a much greater disadvantage fighting Donaire than Dzinziruk was against Martinez and it makes that victory less impressive.

 

You're right that context is important, Dz coulda beat SS or Zbik maybe. Narvaez then woulda beat their equivalent at 118, if there were any. He's also won belts in 2 divs, unlikely for Dz.

Dz gets knocked out by Quilliin guaranteed, HNN likely, maybe even Geale the way Karmazin went. Both guys are creaky, available, and slow on the trigger. Geale could just unload on him.