Serious thoughts on this Harry Greb shadow boxing video?

How can I join this secret society with a giant collection of stolen Greb film?

 

I do appreciate the effort it must take to value a few seconds of meaningless exercise footage with zero knowledge of context over a 300 fight resume with probably 100 elite fighters on it. That sort of delusion takes an ultimate commitment.

And is there a complimentary argument of "bigger, faster, stronger" going on here in comparison to modern fighters? Because aside from the same day weigh in argument, you can throw bigger out the window. They are weight divisions with limits. We know that elite sprinters (the best quantifiable measure of speed in sport) from at least the 1930's were comparable to today's elite sprinters (OK, maybe throw Bolt out the equation as an alltime outlier) given the conditions of the two eras... and as for stronger? OK, Shane Mosely, Canelo, Toney, Mayorga, Vargas... perhaps they were stronger... and perhaps... oh well, I'll let you finish that one.

 

I think there has been a shift to more power and explosiveness, but it's come at the expense of endurance.

Probably has something to do with the shorter bouts, but I think a lot is just modern ideas. Going through the short amateur fights probably emphasises it more too.

However endurance is far more trainable, whereas explosiveness is much more something you are born with, so it being a good trade off to make is pretty questionable IMO. The number of fighters who gas in even 10 rounders etc. is atrocious.

 

Yeah, and Goerner's 729 pound deadlift without lifting gear or PEDs from the 1920s is still very frickin' heavy.

I agree that a successful attack on older fighters would have to be cumulative -- that fractional advantages in a lot of different fields add up to a big gap. This doesn't seem unreasonable, though, since it only assumes that differences at the top are decided by narrow margins. Which is true, at least in some sports.

You think that the lighter-weight fighters have inferior stamina to their predecessors in the 70s?

I don't see why power wouldn't be trainable. It's certainly trainable in other power sports like judo, shot put, or Olympic lifting. Granted, some people are born with a higher genetic ceiling, but I would assume that's the same for stamina.

 

It's trainable, but nowhere near to the same extent. It's just not.

In explosive sports it's mostly about mechanical improvements, or improving strength, and then getting the same explosiveness back with more strength to improve total power.

You can improve you're outright strength, but the extent you can use it explosively is far more neural. Stamina does have a genetic component too, but you can train it far more, but it takes a lot of work to maximise.

 

It sounds like we both agree that you can improve power by increasing strength, mechanics, or speed of contraction.

Mechanics are trainable. I think Steward said that he turned Hearns from a light puncher into a murderous one just by improving his technique and positioning.

Strength is trainable. Again, we seem to agree here. If your muscle contracts at the same speed but with greater strength, power is improved.

I'm going from memory of training manuals here, but explosiveness can also be improved by explosive lifting or plyometrics. You may be right that this is the hardest part of the triad to improve, though.

To the extent that sport-specific endurance training has improved, you might also improve power over the course of a fight by improving the fighter's ability to throw high-effort, hard punches for longer.

 

What the hell you talking about?? I never said a smaller, weaker, slower athlete makes you better? I said that there is A LOT more to boxing than bigger, faster, stronger! If you can not wrap your pea brain around the FACT that Greb's preparation, boxing ability and yes his movement lead to his success .. That is your problem!!! Waiting to hear all the things that Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial did wrong??

 

You do realize that this is 34 seconds of footage for which we have not context. We don't know what he is supposed to be accomplishing here, whether is merely some loosening up, goofing off or aerobic type activity... Boxrec lists 118 of Greb's fights and we know that he fought closer to 300. Still taking Boxrec's numbers, that is over 50 hours of professional active bout experience. And we are supposed to extrapolate 34 seconds of non-ring experience to come to a conclusion on 50+ ring hours.

 

I know many like to go round and round here but it's pretty simple ..

Greb was an all time great fighter. He fought and defeated many terrific fighters that look great on film. He is clearly not a fighter to judge on time corrected film. In addition it has long been documented that he had an unconventional style by those who saw him live so there you have it.

 

I think the issue arose from people examining the limited footage and fawning over it.

 

Rather than ducking the elephant in the room can you can explain how you can arrive at the point where you believe, based on a short training clip that Greb sucked AND beat more HOFers than anyone else? Is it that you believe everyone he beat also sucked? Do you believe he got gift decisions at what would have been a historic rate? Im really curious. Again, we can watch film of his opponents and see they good. Jeff Smith, Mickey Walker, Mike ODowd, Mike and Tommy Gibbons, Tunney, Loughran, etc. All look good. So please, rather than just asking us what we see in this film while arguing that Greb was clueless, explain the train of thought that leads from point A. That Greb sucked to point B. That his opponents didn't (or maybe did, a much harder thing to argue given that we do indeed have good footage of them) and yet at point C. He beat them on a remarkably consistent basis? Please, outline this for us. Otherwise you are just taking a vacation from the general forum to troll here.

 

If you look in the rankings though, NWS wins are included in the record still. It's bizzaire.

 

Bo

Yeah, I've been wondering about this too… very strange!

Also it makes a complete mockery of the KO%. Greb is now listed with a KO% of 40 - when in reality it's only 16. Same thing with Dillon, Levinsky, etc... everybody with a lot of ND bouts now have a completely unrealistic KO%

 

Since I have seen no video of Greb fighting I have made no comments about his fighting ability. Maybe when he was in an actual fight he looked like SRL or Evander Holyfield, I have no idea what he looked like in the ring, but I have always heard "you play like you practice."

I have commented on the video and the fundamentals and techniques Greb showed in that video. The 34 second video is significant to me because he does about everything wrong in that 34 seconds that a boxer could do, he walks with his right hand, he lifts his elbow before punching, he crosses his feet, he bends at the waist, he "wings" his elbows, and more. If one is more impressed with a boxer's resume' than his video, I can understand why this video wouldn't affect your perception of Greb. If one is more interested in seeing a boxer on video than in reading about a fighter's resume', this video is the only information available on Greb.

I don't claim to be a boxing historian, I have little interest in a boxer's resume, I make my decisions about boxers by what I see. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about Greb, but I'm not going to pretend that I'm impressed by Greb's video.

 

Lol at that being the issue.

And not the fact that the one of the greatest boxers in history is having his basic boxing fundamentals put under fire over a ten second warmup clip.