Serious thoughts on this Harry Greb shadow boxing video?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SambaKing7, Sep 5, 2018.



  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Wrong, I never said Sugar said it the quote I was referring to, only that he is one of a few who thinks Greb head butted Tunney in round one. Greb could be dirty you know.

    When did Tunney back out of the contract? Details are needed. He was probably making more money elsewhere, like a million dollars to fight Jack Dempsey the next year for the heavyweight title. Ya think?! Why would he need Greb again, he just whipped him. Greb's quote is telling.

    Leave it to boxing false bravado, just like Dempsey singed to meet Wills when he knew the NYC commission would vote against it, forget the fact the fight could have been moved elsewhere. Greb did not want Tunney again, unless of course he could make a lot of money in exchange for a beating.
     
  2. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Get your own ****ing details. Its not my job to educate you. You misspoke. Plain and simple. I posted an actual newspaper from the venue at the time with the headline stating Greb signed to fight. If you want to keep blithering on and on that he didn't because you found a quote by him stating he wouldn't fight Tunney again then wallow in your ignorance. I couldn't care less. Its no different than any other time you are proven completely wrong but cant admit it. Remember when you swore up and down that you had seen Langford-Hague. Then you changed it to knowing someone who had it. Then you claimed it was Ted Spoon and McVey. Both of whom publicly denied it. You just wouldnt let it go until every last straw you could grasp on to was beaten out of your hands. Remember, your defense of Kurt Noltimier's bull**** claims that he had a Greb-Gans film?? Every time you were made to look more and more ignorant you just had to keep coming back before finally stating "Well, I was just going by his word." Or the Gunboat Smith-Jack Johnson thing. You found one ****ing quote somewhere where someone said Smith had knocked him out in an exhibition and just ran with it. You couldn't admit that you had jumped the gun. I had to post Gunboat Smiths own ****ing words explaining what had happened before you finally backed off. There have been dozens of these instances. Well, here is an opportunity to shut the **** before you are made a fool of again. You seriously think the Miami sportswriters didn't know that a promoter in Miami had signed Greb to fight Tunney, who had been staying in Miami all winter, for a fight and they just accidently splattered that headline across their page?? GTFO! Just admit you grabbed one quote and didn't understand the full picture. There is no shame in that. The only shame in being wrong is when you cant admit it.
     
  3. The Morlocks

    The Morlocks Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Sorry. Business did very well for me. But I am also older. So had more time to stockpile.
     
  4. The Morlocks

    The Morlocks Boxing Addict Full Member

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    WOW!!!!!!!! Mr.Pot, meet Mr. Kettle
     
  5. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Doesn't believe the hype Full Member

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    Donald Trump is arguably the most dishonest president in American history and you're taking random shots at Hillary Clinton's facts? Bizarre.
     
  6. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Doesn't believe the hype Full Member

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    How so?
     
  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Wrong, I never said Sugar said it the quote I was referring to, only that he is one of a few who thinks Greb head butted Tunney in round one. Greb could be dirty you know.

    When did Tunney back out of the contract? Details are needed. He was probably making more money elsewhere, like a million dollars to fight Jack Dempsey the next year for the heavyweight title. Ya think?! Why would he need Greb again, he just whipped him. Greb's quote is telling.

    Leave it to boxing false bravado, just like Dempsey singed to meet Wills when he knew the NYC commission would vote against it, forget the fact the fight could have been moved elsewhere. Greb did not want Tunney again, unless of course he could make a lot of money in exchange for a beating. - Mendoza

    ROLAMO @ you. Okay, you have a newspaper headline? OMG, really, there's 100 headlines out there in boxing. No serious historian, let alone one who spent 12 years researching one fighter would take a newspaper headline as a fact. Or would you like me to find some bogus newspaper headlines on Greb, then apply your logic, as if it means something.

    Was there a purse offered for Tunney vs Greb 6?

    If so how much and when?

    " Mr. Expert " produce the above, its only your reputation on the line!

    And even if you can show this I already showed you Tunney beat the tar out of Greb in the 5th fight, and Greb's quote that's he can't beat Tunney anymore because Tunney improved. Besides as I showed you Tunney was set to make a million fighting Jack Dempsey. Less than 10,000 people ( I'd have to research to get the exact number ) saw Greb vs Tunney 5. Who would you fight if you were Tunney??

    1 ) A faded man who you just trashed ( Greb )

    or

    2 ) A million dollar gate and a crack at the heavyweight championship of the world?

    Easy call, now show us you can be honest and tell us your thoughts on the question as to who Tunney should fight.

    Now, you feel the need to quickly pivot away from the conversation to when Ted Spoon who no longer posts here said he too saw Langford vs Hague, and when things bubbled up to the point where he might have pissed someone off, reversed his story. Kurt N dislikes you. Lots in the community do. No surprise, but he did offer to show me what he thinks could be Greb vs Allentown Gans for free, and for judge for myself. He's alright in my book. Its not my style to do so, but I bet he knows a few things about you that you would not like repeated in a public forum and I'll leave it at that :)

    If you want to quote GB Smith's word " And he never forgot it " referring to the punch that had Jack Johnson seeing stars. Johnson gave title shots to guys GB Smith beat in Willard and Moran, but never to Smith himself! In add-on Smith mixed it with Langford who Johnson himself pulled out of a contract to meet in 1909! Hmmmmm.....And Smith flattened Johnson in the exhibition match when he was a novice, far from the fighter he became years later when Johnson still had the title.
     
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  8. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The point stands. You were wrong. In both instances actually.

    Again, do your own ****ing leg work. Details are needed BY YOU, not by me. Im the only person here who has posted a verifiable first hand source. Until you can come back with a Miami newspaper saying Greb had a change of heart I don't need to prove ****. My case is made. The best thing you can come up with is a paraphrase from a website article posted last month. LOL.

    Facts don't lie. You do.




    Sure, because newspapers were known for blasting big bold headlines excitedly advertising upcoming fights that they didn't think would actually happen...

    Yes there was and even if I produced it you would still run your ****ing mouth. Its what you do. You have never been able to admit that you were wrong, even when the entire board is questioning your idiocy. Ive already shown the fight was signed. Ive gone through proving you wrong so many times its tiresome. Who do you think has better credibility here? You, who has never produced anything factual in his life that wasn't already spoon fed him someone much more capable, or me, who backs up everything he says with factual citations? Im not worried about what YOU think. Im worried that some poor fool who doesn't have the long experience of seeing you lie through your teeth will come along and mistakenly believe your dumbass.

    And theres my point. You found one quote that you think was etched in stone. A quote that was uttered in early 1925. For some reason you think time froze at the instant that quote was published. And yet in early 1926 there was Greb, signing to fight Tunney. Kind of reminds me of when Greb first fought Flowers in 1924. Afterwards he sang Flowers praises and said he was so good he was never going to fight him again. Guess what? When the Flowers was deemed Greb's top contender Greb jumped on a train, headed to New York, and signed to fight him the next day. Then fought him again after that. So you tell me, were Greb's words cast in stone? Or was Greb maybe given over to hyperbole when praising his opponents and as his record bore out, never afraid to face anyone regardless of his past history with them. Greb got his ass kicked by other fighters, Joe Borrell, Tommy Gibbons, to name a couple. He came back and fought each one three more times. Borrell broke his nose and ribs and left him bed ridden. He gave him a far worse beating than Tunney ever dreamed he gave Greb and still Greb came back for more. So no, I don't put much weight in that quote. Not in light of the fact that Greb SIGNED TO FIGHT HIM AGAIN.

    It doesn't matter what Tunney's motivation was for not going through with the fight. The point is that it was Tunney, not Greb who backed out of it. Greb was game for a sixth go. Period. Which side of the fence are you going to argue? That Greb never signed to fight or that Tunney had good reason for backing out the fight, because the two arguments are mutually exclusive of one another. You need to pick one.


    Don't **** on my leg and tell me its raining. You lied and got caught in a lie. Period. Ted was explicit he had not seen it and you were not speaking for him. You said the same thing about McVey and McVey admitted he hadn't seen it either. You had lied. I knew it. You knew it. And so did everyone else. It certainly wasn't the first time and it wont be the last.

    I lose ZERO sleep over people I will never know and don't care to know disliking me. Zero. I sleep better knowing Kurt dislikes me. Why? Because Kurt has been trying to con people for over twenty years with bogus fights. In the late 90s it was passing off Dempsey sparring Jock Malone as Dempsey Greb. In the 2000s it was trying to pass of Dempsey sparring Tillie Kid Herman as Dempsey sparring Greb. In the 2010s he first tried to pass of a sparring film from the 1930s as first Greb sparring Bill Tate (never happened) and then as Greb actually fighting Allentown Joe Gans. You know this story because I illustrated the entire thing with screenshots from his website that he didn't know you couldn't scrub to cover your tracks. Hes a ****ing idiot and a con man and your even worse for trying to attach yourself to that lie. Kurt doesn't like me because every time he posts some bull**** con I expose him. I will continue to. Hes a scumbag who takes advantage of less informed people such as yourself. Count yourself lucky Im here to help you. Otherwise you might have spent the $100,000 he was asking for that 10th generation video tape he was peddling through a third party in Las Vegas at the fights. Yeah, Im really upset over the fact that that pencil necked ****head "dislikes" me.

    I dont care who Johnson defended against. That wasn't the point. The point was you took an incorrect quote you found somewhere and have run with it ever since. I see you are still doing it. That's fine. If you would rather take the word of a third party who got the story wrong over the man who himself it just shows how desperate you avoid admitting you are wrong. Again, I couldn't care less. You claim what you want and I'll post Gunboats own words and everyone else can decide who is more credible.

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  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    ^^^ Wow. Run Klompton, Run.

    In 1926 Tunney was fighting Dempsey for the title. He made a lot more money.

    When can you show us the contract and purses for Greb vs. Tunney 6? I've asked a few times, where is it? What was the purse? When did they sign? You can't even come up with basic information here, " Mr. Expert "

    Tunney already beat Greb up in 1925 ( Along with Gibbons and Risko in 1925 ), and was going for the money with Dempsey. We saw what Greb said after this fight, if you were reasonable you'd see what you're talking about is nonsense. A media stunt.


    • The consensus among the newspaper reporters at ringside was that Tunney won six of the ten rounds. Some had Tunney winning eight rounds to two.

    • "That's the last time I'll fight this guy," Greb told Referee George Barton in his dressing room after the fight. "He's getting too big and too strong for me to handle. I could lick him at one time but not anymore. Tunney is really getting good."

    My quote on Ted is 100% accurate. He says he saw it, and I told you why he might have changed his mind. My quote on Gunboat Smith can be viewed in the book " In this corner by Pete Heller " Stop lying man! " And he never forgot it " - Gunboat Smith referring to the punch that knocked Jack Johnson silly.

    I find it incredibly ironic that you often attack newspaper sources, yet you are the one using a headline here.

    I don't need you to tell me what is authentic or not; you're the guy who thinks Greb fought like Mayorga :) :) :) and also said you not even sure you could identify Greb in a boxing film.

    I never said Greb vs Allentown Gans was authentic by the way, nor did I see it. I said other historians who saw it felt it was genuine, then you went out of your way to strike back at one of your many swell relationships within the boxing community.

    I think you'd do really well in a reality TV series. A Tony Clifton type for those who remember his act except you're much better with anger and have far less charisma. Episode #1. A Greb vs Walker is found. The K man, who has burned bridges will stop at nothing to see it!

    If you can come back with the data I requested, I'll reply. If not, I think I'll just sit back and watch the others roast you.
     
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  10. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Active Member Full Member

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    I actually think you make a pretty good case either way on this, really early modern boxing hasn't been looked into nearly enough, let alone evidence of boxing before then. Remember we do have a report of boxing from 1681, with something having by this point established a reputation as being the best in England. Another interesting one is a 1711 article talking about shadow boxing (with weights), which appartently he found in a latin treatise. There's also a history in Russia that Escudo is looking into, seemingling a history of "group boxing" in Italy going back to atleast 1600, and I have a suspicion things like mob football kept the fine art of punching alive too. There's certainly some history of modern boxing going pre-Figg, if it goes all the way back to antiquity continuously is another argument.
     
  11. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club Full Member

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    I don't think Calcio Fiorentino was boxing. More like really violent rugby. If Russia had a fistfighting sport in the 1600s, or whenever, somebody would need to show strong links between Russia and the English sport that became Western boxing.

    The Latin treatise, from what your post says, sounds like a classicist poring over old lore. Rather like the Renaissance humanists tried to revive Roman legions without understanding them.

    The English source from 1681 sounds more interesting, and I don't remember reading about that. Did it look like Petter / Ring Buch all-in peasant wrestling from the same period, or was it recognizable fisticuffs?
     
  12. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Broken record. You can find answers to every single “point” you made here (and the one on top of your head) In my posts above.
     
  13. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Active Member Full Member

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    The I know of evidence is scant so far. Like I said I think it can be argued either way. The continuity is certainly the big question, but I also think if it was found to be fairly widespread, that would support it. For Italy I was referring to stuff like this
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    But I've not found a lot on it

    I dumped what I could find here
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    That is possible, but even if it was just an earlier rivival of boxing, it still changes a fair bit about the early history of boxing

    The report is sadly just this.

    Protestant Mercury December 28, 1681 (page 4)
    Yesterdaya Match of Boxing was performed, before his Grace Duke of Albemarl, between the Dukes Foot-man and a Butcher, the latter won the Prize, as he hath done many before, being accounted (though but a little Man) the best at the Exercise in England

    I made a thread on it, but really it's just my interpratationg of it
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    I don't want to dereail this thread (as wonderfull as it is), but if you want to discuss anything further, feel free to post in those threads.
     
  14. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "there would have been a period of years where all the older fighters were being blown away dramatically by the younger fighters, or even seemingly peaking fighters being blown away by newer, younger fighters."

    I think there is an argument that this did happen between 1937 and 1942 or so with the influx of talent such as Joe Louis, Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Billy Conn, etc. I am certain there is a strong counter-argument, but I think there is a case which can be made.

    These men were not so far above the earlier talent that they couldn't lose one (Schmeling-Louis) but it does seem that they were a higher level on the whole.
     
  15. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think you can make this case for a lot of eras though, so drawing that correlation to the evolution of skill in the sport is problematic. For instance in the late 70s and early eighties you had Spinks, Holmes, Leonard, Hagler, and basically a wave of new talent that emerged to replace the old guard. I would say this is more of a natural progression of championships and how the sport is set up than an evolution of the sport. Historically you typically see these waves every generation or two where the cream rises to the top, get old, then another generation emerges to take over. Its just harder to see today because the sport is so watered down. The talent isnt funneled up to the top like it used to be. A guy like Lew Tendler, who was a top contender in the old days but never a champ, would be a champ today and might not ever fight Leonard, or at least not in his prime when it matters, because he can make money defending against no hopers. So you dont really get to see a clear generational divide now because there are so many different paths to “success” and so few real opportunities to dominate and prove you are the best.
     
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