Serious thoughts on this Harry Greb shadow boxing video?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SambaKing7, Sep 5, 2018.



  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    I have asked our belligerent " expert " this question. Asking for dates on when it was signed by both parties and the purse amount. He's running from these questions.

    Tunney pounded Greb. Greb admitted it and said he had no interested in a 6th match. A news headline means little, but to keep one's name in the press. I see no large purse here.

    Still running? Run Forrest run. If you had what I'm asking for you show it here as quickly as possible.

    What were the dates? Did Tunney sign it? How much was the purse? If you don't have that information, just admit it and say so.

    Yes--I think in boxing history managers have used the press for their favor. And I've seen you blast the press before calling it the mouthpiece of so and so, so please spare us the double standards.
     
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  2. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I didnt take you to raise. Im currently the ONLY person in this discussion who posted a varifiable first hand account to uphold his argument. In the meantime where is my list you keep threatening to publish? Where is the Greb-Gans film? Where is the evidence behind any number of other lies youve been busted on over the years. Im not McVey moron, im not going to incessantly entertain your delusions because you have nothing better to do.
     
  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Strike three you're out. No information, just a news headline. Would you like me to post a news headline that never happened? Newspaper headlines are often false.

    Still trying to pivot away from the question I see. There's nothing more to see here, you have been called out and can't produce what I'm asking for.

    The only think I agree on is your not Mcvey.

    I have your boxing list. Others here know it :) It serves me no point sending it to you, as you'll just lie about it. Once you said, oh, you must have my " public " list, but why not show what you have? You sure spend enough time talking about it.
     
  4. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Sure you do... yet youve posted snippets that dont come from my list and cant name fights that appear on it. Nevermind the fact that I have two lists, a public list and a private list, the public list included only fights that I didnt care to trade or sell. Meaning only my private list was complete. Furthermore I havent given a list out to anyone in almost a decade (when I stopped actively trading and selling) and stopped updating my list when I went digital years ago. In the intervening years since last giving out my list my collection has grown substantially. So any list that you might have gotten ahold of (and again, your excerpts did not come from my list) was A. out of date by several years when the last person I gave it to got it years ago B. Incomplete and C. Now only reflects a fraction of my current collection. So while I know you dont have my list in any form you couldnt possibly have a list of my complete collection at any time in history and as time goes on any person who ever had a copy of my list would find it less and less reflective of my collection. But feel free to post what ever it is you think you have. We could even put it to the test. I could shoot you catalogue numbers from my list and you can tell me what that tape or DVD has on it. We both know you wont do this though because you dont have my list.
     
  5. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Hard to argue against results at the end of the day. Like you say, the only thing that might change that is if we got a hold of some Greb fights that people thought he clearly won, but when viewing it we see he likely lost and looked bad. Very doubtful, but that would be the way to alter things I suppose.
     
  6. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    A great example of this is Reggie Miller... In technical terms, he did a lot wrong when going up for a jump shot. If that player didn't consistently make them, the team would've brought in a shot coach faster than his head could spin during training camp of his rookie year. The thing is, it worked and he made them consistently. I wasn't a technically sound jump shot like the Curry family or Ray Allen, but it didn't need to look pretty it only needed to go in and it did.
     
  7. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The questions surrounding the fall of the color line and its impact are complex, muddied certainly, as you point out, by WWII, but considering that the color line really began falling about 1935, I think it very significant that if one named the best fighters active in the world in 1938, the three top names would be Joe Louis, Henry Armstrong (those two for certain) and probably John Henry Lewis. That seems to me to be an overwhelming impact.

    Also, there is a difference between the great fighters of the late teens and twenties and those of the late thirties and forties. Longevity. I can't think of a champion or top contender from the teens who was still a major boxing force in the 1930's. Perhaps you can. But pre-WWII fighters like Louis, Robinson, and Moore endured into the fifties for Louis and into the sixties for Robinson and Moore.

    There was an amazing influx of talent born over less than a decade of time. Armstrong (1912). Louis & Lewis (1914). Moore (1916). Robinson & Charles (1921). These include a triple champion (Armstrong), extremely rare in the pre-alphabet era, the longest reigning heavyweight (Louis) and light-heavyweight (Moore) champions, and Robinson who was considered the best of all.

    On Maxim and Robinson--I re-watched the fight again. My take is that Robinson was not that effective with his jab. The majority of his jabs were I think actually thrown to the body. I can't see doing that if you can effectively jab the guy in the face. I concede that there is no doubt at all that the consensus is that Robinson dominated this fight. The official judges scored it that way. The press saw it that way. Modern commentators and historians add their weight to the scales. So I am a total outsider (with the singular exception of Maxim himself who is on film saying it was his "easiest" fight), and am definitely the outlier here. Still, a brilliant boxing performance and effective punching is not what I see from Robinson. His head punches generally missed or were parried by Maxim. His body work might have scored points, but appear to have been totally ineffective. Maxim's rarer body punches were the ones which seem to have had an impact. The heat? It was hot for both men. The commentator opined at one point in a late round that it was amazing that Maxim could stand up to such a beating. My reaction is what beating? His face looked more of less unmarked. He never appeared hurt at all to me, but I am not so certain about Robinson, even before the late rounds. I can see feeling that Robinson's aggressiveness, even if mainly ineffective, won him most rounds, but Maxim's defensive tactics won out at the end and in fairness he was very good at it.
     
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Backpedaling already? So now you're moving the goal posts to oh, you have my B, or C list, or public list. LOL!

    Its got your name on it with over 15,000 fights. I have seen you use the basic descriptions from the list in the forum most likely they were your notes. The list itself came from a fight collector.

    I don't trust you for a test. You will change up the catalog #'s, or lie about it. Sorry.

    Why act like your Dirk Digger when you're afraid to show the goods? If you being honest that you don't sell or trade anymore ( I'm calling BS here, you can and will if the T's and C's suit you ), show us what you've got! It's not like your giving up anything of value by doing this. What exactly are you afraid of?!

    Since we have moved on from you not being able to show me where Tunney signed to meet Greb for the 6th time and the purse for the match ( after I quoted Greb saying he's done with Tunney and too good for him ) , this is actually something you can prove!

    PS: I'm not going to waste time identifying guy in the pictures you posted. I probably could some right, but I'm still blown away when you said you're not even sure you could identify Greb on a film...after researching the man for 12 years. Yes-- you said it.
     
  9. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    If a newspaper headline from the town holding the fight doesnt convince you nothing will. You spent pages and pages and pages defending Kurt Noltimiers fabricated story despite you knowing literally nothing about it. Im not going to chase my tell arguing with you.

    Post whatever list you have. I couldnt care less.
     
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Oh, I heard the story, where he got it, how he thought it was Greb sparring with Bill Tate ( Who's much bigger than Allentown Gans ), and he offered me a free viewing. I also gave names of people who viewed it that thought it was the real deal. I never said either way.

    You had two chances to prove me wrong with data, and you're 0-2.

    Newspaper headlines are not always true in boxing. Maybe I'll post a false one on Greb, and watch you run...
     
  11. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Like I said, Im not mcvey. Im not here to entertain you. Say hello to all the other dumbasses on my ignore list.
     
  12. TonyGrub

    TonyGrub Member Full Member

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    Rambling post but here goes

    First thing's first, Greb was never considered an orthodox or aesthetically-pleasing fighter to look at.

    Also, I don't reckon the shadow boxing is as bad as even I initially thought. He shadow boxes like he's actually fighting, dancing around, right hand up parrying, smothering, jabbing, slipping in, firing up the uppercut, pivotting out to the side and punching again. It's more real than the stuff you see from modern boxers who look like works of art while shadow boxing but don't really seem to use it as anything beyond a warm up/cool down and certainly don't replicate it in the ring.

    Greb's moves display fundamentals, in his own way. Slow the video down and you can see them everywhere, if you know anything about boxing. His weight mostly sits over the rear hip and when he throws a right, the weight shifts to the front hip which sees his head shift markedly from right to left, keeping his head out of the firing line while attacking. It all looks a bit exaggerated but there's nothing really wrong with it technically and in 33 odd seconds of film the bloke is damn busy. If he's doing that for 3 minutes of every round, you're having problems and Greb's record highlights how effective he was. He knew what he was doing, he was just doing it in a way that worked for him. He may not have been anywhere near as good if he fought in an orthodox manner.

    I don't care what anyone says, modern boxing has lost a lot in terms of technical nuance. Big gloves and volume-based, bang-bang amateur style head hunting from squared stances. Hands up, you go, I go. Pad work, excessive focus on strength and conditioning, etc. I saw an interview with Bronco McKart recently in which he discussed training with Bill Miller (same man who trained James Toney) and he said there was no pad work and not much bag work, but working on moves and techniques. Archie Moore said similar, the best friend of an up and coming figher is a body-length mirror. Work on your moves, see how you would look to an opponent, visualise different scenarios, etc. James Toney watched videos of Charles and Moore, learnt their moves. Mike McCallum watched videos of Ray Robinson. Ray Robinson watched film of Kid Chocolate. Kid Chocolate watched film of Jack Johnson. There were things that the old timers did that were simply advantageous to what we see these days. Hopkins fought until 50 using old school methods that much younger boxers using modern methods had trouble with. The sport would do well to get back skill-focused training and fortunately, it seems in parts it is.
     
  13. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Not here for the fairy tales Full Member

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    You don't see anything wrong with what Greb's doing during his shadowboxing clip? The way he crosses his legs, falls to the side with his punches, constantly ends up with his head far in front of his body, flares his arms, etc.?

    The style that you refer to as the "bang-bang amateur style head hunting from squared stances" has plenty of advantages. Doesn't look as creative or entertaining as the swashbuckling styles and open stances of older fighters, but it's defensively superior and probably better suited for hitting and not getting hit (the name of the game).

    By the way, how did Hopkins train any differently than his "modern style" contemporaries? He also used plenty of padwork and as far as I can tell, trained like almost any other modern middleweight or light-heavyweight.
     
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  14. surfinghb

    surfinghb Active Member Full Member

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    It is absolutely f****** amazing how people can look at this clip and ASSUME they know what is going on in Harry Greb's mind during this clip and say he is doing something WRONG .. what a joke.. And maybe , just maybe he is moving around, staying loose and getting a workout in, NO MATTER what it looks like.. For all these things he is said doing "wrong" in this clip, he sure did everything right in the ring.. Like the big mystery has now been solved and Greb has been exposed as being a fraud.. It all goes back to the old saying never ASSUME because you will always make an ASS, out of, U, and ME … In other words , the proof is in the pudding, and if Greb doesn't have one of the best resumes of all time, beat the most HOFers of all time, has close to the most fights of all time , beat Tunney's a** twice giving up significant weight, and is P4P one of the best of all time … then NO ONE IS …. So now the big mystery has been solved and everyone else who was ringside to witness Greb kick a** and dominate for so many fights are now all wrong because of a work out clip .. Are you kidding me? Can't wait to hear who the new GOAT is … Mayweather jnr?
     
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  15. Bukkake

    Bukkake Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I guess it's possible, that Toney studied footage of Charles and Moore, and that McCallum watched film of Robinson. But is it likely that Robinson studied Kid Chocolate, who in turn was learning from old films of Johnson? I could be wrong... but it's my understanding, that film of the old masters wasn't readily available for trainers and boxers to study until at least after 1960?
     
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