Serious thoughts on this Harry Greb shadow boxing video?

I don't think boxers have moved on dramatically from those guys listed but it has changed since the days of Greb of course. However the mistake many people make is to assume just because the style is different it was not effective or would not still be effective against a modern technique.

 

The thread is about Greb, but my reply dealt primarily with the heavyweights.

Not quite right.

I don't know whether the 60s-70s guys could dominate modern guys. I suspect not, as my conversation with Conteh above outlines. But I think it's an interesting question to explore. Just like the converse is -- whether there's really much of a gap between the 70s and Louis's era.

However, from personal experience, people can get very angry when these topics are discussed. People love the 60s and 70s. I come onto this forum to have fun and chat about boxing. Consequently, I restrain myself from asking questions or making statements that will provoke angry, endless replies. What you call "nibbling around the edges" is more like "avoiding flashpoint issues." The forum gives me a range of acceptable areas where I can speculate without getting attacked too much. I usually shrug and stick to those.

 

It's true that lower weight guys are generally more skilled and aesthetically pleasing to watch.

It's just that I can't bring myself to care as much. It's like watching a lighter weightclass weightlifting competition, or a basketball game with a height limit. It's always in the back of your mind that these guys aren't competing in a league where the apex guy can beat any opponent on the planet.

On modern vs old, it goes without saying that the more you restrict modern advantages (like prohibiting them from getting too large), the better the old timers will do.

 

Absolutely. There's been no advancement in skills for decades and some have argued the other way very diligently.

 

The last quantum leap in skill advancement came when Tommy “Hurricane” Jackson invented the double uppercut and changed the game forever.

 

Likely to dramatically re-emerge any time now.

 

How right you were.

 

Yeah it will get there for sure at some point.

 

For me it's not old vs. new, or bigger vs. smaller, it's pre-PEDs vs. PEDs. PEDs affect all divisions, but this is mostly about the heavyweights were it is more obvious. If there was no such thing as PEDs, comparisons could be made to older heavyweight fighters, you could compare Jack Dempsey, or any fighter who has video, to whoever would be champ today. I doubt it would be a 6'3", 215 pounder or a 6'9" 275 pounder either. In the pre-PED eras, the bigger fighters didn't do that well. They occasionally made it to the top but they didn't stay there, they were awkward/clumsy and often didn't have the necessary stamina. If there were no PEDs the champ today would probably be much smaller, more like the pre-PEDs heavyweights.

People haven't changed, the PEDs have allowed athletes to train harder, recover faster, get much stronger, leaner, quicker, etc., and it has opened up heavyweight boxing to bigger people who would probably be too slow, and awkward, and lack stamina without the PEDs. Without PEDs, who knows who would have been the best for the last 60 years? From what I've seen over the years, PEDs don't just affect the physical, they also affect a person's confidence, courage, willingness to fight and endure, and more. Just because someone who uses PEDs has been a dominant fighter does not mean the same guy would be the best if nobody used PEDs. The same guy might be afraid to fight without PEDs.

In boxing, in the heavyweight division, IMO, the cut off is Ali. There was nothing like Ali from the time of Sullivan (no athletic 6'3", 212 pound fighters with speed and endurance) until Ali, then by the 70s there were a number of boxers Ali's size who were also coordinated, strong, quick, agile. By the 80s almost all of them were Ali's size and bigger and many were strong, quick, agile, etc. By the 90s, the 6'5" heavyweights were common place and they just keep getting bigger, stronger, etc. I don't think people have evolved since 1964, but there has been a big change in size and athleticism among heavyweight boxers (and other sports).