Setting the record straight on Marvin Hart. Apollack's book on Hart

The Oakland Trib stated exactly what I said which was that Johnson scored more points and Hart made the fight. In its pre fight buildup the trib also states the fact as to how greggains would be scoring the winner. I still fail to see any subtrefuge. Especially considering the exact quote from the Trib's limited coverage was "Clearly showing himself strong on points Johnson lacked the grit and aggressiveness of Hart and this lost him the bout." How is that in any way a condemnation of the decision or scoring criteria?

Siler was not the only one on the scene and the oakland trib was non committal. The san francisco call clearly states that while Johnson was more clever Hart was the aggressor and more willing to take chances. If you count the rounds that the call tallied you will see that they they failed to score the final round (which most observers gave to Hart) and came with a final tally of 6 rounds Hart, 6 rounds Johnson, and 7 Rounds even. Taking into account that most scored the final round for Hart you could argue that based on that card it was a 1 round win for Hart. Even so it was obviously a close fight that was going to be judged based on what you looked for and what style you preferred. So clearly this was not a one sided landslide robbery against Johnson. It was considered a very poor fight and the call remarked that if either Johnson or Hart ever met Jeffries in the ring they would die of fright. The Call also makes mention of Johnson's habit of not taking chances and playing it safe to the detriment of the paying customers which had become a criticism against him and which contributed to Greggains making the statement that he would be scoring on aggressiveness so as to get the fans their monies worth. Hardly a conspiracy.

 

Had the decision been given by clean hitting blocking and punishment administered then Johnson would have won by a country mile.
After the contest Johnson hardly showed a mark but Harts face was puffed out like a soiled pumpkin.
Oakland Tribune Oakland, California | Wednesday, March 29, 1905

Hart seemed astonished when his arm was raised in victory.

Anything pro Hart reads to much like the Korean version of validating Roy Jones shafting at the 88 Olympics with a comparable amount of racism.
In any case Johnson never conceded defeat, quite the contrary.

 

Eddie Smith
All during the 20 rounds of that contest Hart beaten to a crisp was continually on the aggressive and with wild swings cased the clever negro who all though the fight did not receive a hard punch. At the end of the contest Greggains gave Hart the decisions and although it was one of the worst decisions handed out for some time previous the crowd made little or no criticism: the reason being that the negro so disgusted them that they were glad the white man got the plum.
Oakland Tribune | Oakland, California | Friday, October 04, 1907 | Page 16

 

1907??? 2 and a half years after the fight? I know you better than that Ed. If anyone brought some stale story about Greb from two years later you would call them on it and rightly so.

I never said Johnson conceded defeat.

My point is simply that it isnt nearly so cut and dry. Plenty of people have opinions on how that fight went down and there were many interpretations. I think throwing out conspiracy theories or the race card runs the risk of selling Hart short. Johnson wasnt infallible and legitimately had a reputation for partaking in ugly fights. I agree that mistaking his laid back style for cowardice or "a streak of yellow" is a racial slight but like I said before, you can see in the films that Johnson would be all to comfortable with the John Ruiz style of fighting except less aggressive and that would tend to create enemies even among non racially biased individuals.

 

Wow. Your copy of the Johnson-Hart fight must be a lot better than mine.

And that Jones, Jr. decision was more about racism (the inveterate Korean hatred for Blacks) that nationalism? Your agenda shines through bright and clear. One can not expect a reasonable argument from you.

 

Not so may howlers in this post, did you get some help?

"That afternoon I boxed Ketchel for a few rounds,then,at four o clock I got over to the Seal Rock House and Jack Johnson put on the gloves,and thats where I began to think I was something because I hit him on the chin and knocked him through the ropes".

Gun Boat Smith , speaking in a taped interview at his home in Brooklyn,NY 1970.


"Flynn had good reason to expect that this would be his only chance to win a championship.But he was experienced enough to know that he could not defeat Johnson in a fair fight.
He decided therefore, to train for a foul one.
By inclination a brutal man,in his preparations for his fight with Johnson, he was more vicious than usual.He hired inexperienced local fighters as sparring partners and cruelly practised his dirty tactics on them."

"It became so bad that his trainer Tommy Ryan quit and left camp.
Ryan said that Flynn fully planned to foul Johnson ,and as a result predicted that Flynn would lose the fight on a foul".

"From the first round it was clear Flynn was sadly outclassed.In the early rounds Johnson landed cutting blows whenever he chose."

"Flynn bleeding from gashes above both eyes was particularly bothered by a cut inside his mouth ,which forced him to swallow his own blood.
When the challenger tried to force the action,Johnson pulled him in close and punished him with uppercuts."

"The only punches Flynn landed where to Johnson's stomach, and he was successful there only because the champion , shoved out his stomach, and invited Flynn to blaze away."

"As if this were not humiliation enough ,Johnson talked to ringsiders while Flynn was ineffectually hitting his midsection.Indeed often Johnson seemed more intent in his conversation with his wife and handlers than the business in the ring"

"By the start of round 6 Flynn's face was badly bruised and cut.Blood ran down his chest and stained his trunks.But Johnson ,except for a small cut in his mouth was unmarked."

"This situation must have struck Flynn as inequitable for ,in that round he started using foul tactics.Specifically he attempted to maneuver his head under Johnson's chin and then leap forward, butting the Champions chin and neck".

"In the seventh and eight rounds Flynn continued to try and butt ,and the referee, Smith, kept telling him to stop"

"Finally in round nine, a new twist was added to the farce, Flynn's blond beam lightly grazed Johnson's jaw.Smith did not seem sure what to do.
However Captain Fred Fornoff ,who was representing Governor McDonald at the fight ,had no such doubts,he climbed into the ring and stopped the bout.The fight, he said, had, " become a slaughter,and a merely brutal exhibition"."This said, he retired from the ring and Smith declared Johnson the winner. "

Sounds like Jack really struggled doesn't it?atsch

"In the first round he broke Ross's nose and split the white boxer's lip.
Then after knocking him down,Johnson slowed down and allowed Ross to finish the sixth round bout"

Another life and death struggle for Jack

Now shut up ,you fatuous fool.I am embarrassed for you.

 

He was BLACK too.I just know you never forgot that.:good

I just posted an account of Smith working as a sparring partner for Johnson ,yet you ask me if I know he served in that capacity?

Truthfully,are you ******ed?

Sugar Ray Robinson beat his wife on many occasions.
I judge a fighter on his ring performances, not his private life.
Johnson was not my sort of guy my idol, if I had one, was Jack Dempsey and Ali.
I just can't get my head around how your personal hatred of a man distorts your judgmeent ,and objectivity to such an extent that it makes you a laughing stock on this forum.
You veer from vitiolic, biased ,bigoted, hatred of Johnson ,to unashamed ,adulatory **** sucking of the Klit Bros, its more than bi -partisanship, its bipolar.

 

To me the ultimate question is how much the general dislike of Johnson allowed for a bad decision ... we've all seen fights where a hometown favorite of sorts gets a decision based on ineffective aggression even though he's getting beat ... there's just no way to tell ... here's hoping Adam's book sheds light with some new sources ..

 

Police Gazette;
In the first ten rounds Johnson easily demonstrated
his superiority, and the betting which had opened at '2
to 1, dropped to 10 to 3 In favor of the colored man.
But alter that round Hart made a better showing. He
did not have the better of the going and a draw would
have been a present to him. Johnson undoubte lly
prejudiced the referee by holding until lie was ready to
break, when he would drive his rival of! with a left or
right hook. What saved Hart from going out was his
ability to cover up his Jaw under the most trying circumstances.
Johnson expended a lot of strength try
ing to put Hart away. HHd he devoted his attention
to Hart's body, the opinion prevails that he would have
had Hart at his mercy long before the finish.
In points of cleverness and of blows landed, Johnson,
according to the majority of those present, landed and
led all the way. From the ninth round on to the end
of the twentieth, Hart was bleeding from the nose profuselv.
In spite of this handicap he fought doggedly
and like a man who would not beaten.

 

This is a bit hard to read as it's a PDF copy;and while I havent the time
to edit it all, if you need any clarification I will be glad to give it.

Boston Globe;
WOODWARD'S PAVILION, San Francisco,
March 29—Marvin Hart was
awarded the decision over Jack Johnson
by referee Greggains at the end of the
2Oth round here last night.
Greggains based his decision on the
fact that Hnrt had been the aggressor
from first to last, and that Johnson was
guilty of holding.
There is no doubt that Greggains' opinion
was affected by the tremendous
shouting of the crowd for Hart. When
the gong closed the battle Greggains
struck Hart on tho shoulder as the signal
that he was the victor. The house
showed its enthusiasm for the white
man by shouting.
Johnson was badly disappointed. He
believed himself entitled to the decision
by reason of his clean-cut and terrific
punching.
In the first round Johnson had Hart
groggy, and it looked like a short light.
Hart, however, surprised many by taking
punishment and fighting back. He
was after the negro all the time.
In fact, had Hart not forced the
fighting, it would have been no fight,
as Johnson waited for Hart to step in
with right and left uppercuts. Hart
bled In almost every round from stiff
right uppercuts.
The battle varied, throughout. Hart
never stopped going, and was cheered
after every round. Johnson's work was
clean cut, but he lacked aggressiveness.
He is clever and as a rule shows
to advantage, but he proved to, be at a
disadvantage against the Loulsvllle
man by reason of the latter's borlng-in
tactics and awkward swings.
Hart electrified the crowd In the 14th
round with a right-hand haymaker on
the negro's jaw that staggered him. To
prove that he was not hurt Johnson
came back fast.
From the 15th to the 20th Hart fought
like a demon. He seemed to grow
stronger and faster, and he had Johnson
disheartened. He fought and
wrestled and kept Johnson busy all tho
time. Johnson came back, and usually
found his mark on Hart's nose, but the
latter was game.