Shane Mosley: how highly do you rate him all-time p4p?

The main thing that can be said about that list is Bernard Hopkins is way way too high.

 

My Top 25 Fighters of the Past 25 Years 1983-2008
(*includes explanation for the inclusion of Thomas Hearns)

1.Pernell Whitaker
2.Roy Jones Jr
3.Julio Cesar Chavez
4.Evander Holyfield
5.Floyd Mayweather Jr
6.Lennox Lewis
7.Bernard Hopkins
8.Mike Tyson
9.Thomas Hearns*
10.Mike McCallum
11.Oscar De La Hoya
12.Manny Pacquiao
13.Marco Antonio Barrera
14.Erik Morales
15.James Toney
16.Felix Trinidad
17.Joe Calzaghe
18.Hector Camacho
19.Ricardo Lopez
20.Azumah Nelson
21.Juan Manuel Marquez
22.Winky Wright
23.Shane Mosley
24.Kostya Tszyu
25.Johnny Tapia
*yes, his 147 peak and fights with SRL and Benitez were before 1983, but his career went on successfully long after 1983, in a way that Leonard and Hagler and Duran's didn't, those three were on the way back down after '83, the best periods of their careers were undoubtedly before '83- except maybe Hagler's, but he didn't fight on long enough after 1983 to be considered for this time period IMO. Hearns on the other hand went on from 1983 to beat Duran, fight Hagler, beat younger naturally bigger guys like DeWitt and the previously undefeated Virgil Hill, get the better of SRL in their 2nd fight, and between 1983 and his retirement, he held the WBC light-middleweight title, WBC middleweight, WBO super-middleweight, and the WBC and WBA light-heavyweight titles, before finishing up as a cruiserweight. If the time period was the best fighters from the last 30 years, then obviously Hearns would be higher than 9th place, but I think his post-1983 career justifies his placing here


My Top 25 Fighters 1958-1983
1.Roberto Duran
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Sugar Ray Leonard
4.Carlos Monzon
5.Alexis Arguello
6.Marvin Hagler
7.Eder Jofre
8.Thomas Hearns
9.Emile Griffith
10.Salvador Sanchez
11.Jose Napoles
12.Ruben Olivares
13.Michael Spinks
14.Aaron Pryor
15.Carlos Ortiz
16.Bob Foster
17.Wilfred Benitez
18.Larry Holmes
19.George Foreman
20.Joe Frazier
21.Miguel Canto
22.Antonio Cervantes
23.Carlos Zarate
24.Luis Rodriguez
25.Wilfredo Gomez


There's my two most recent lists. I am more sure of my first one than my second, as my knowledge of the 1980s til now is much stronger than my knowledge of the 1960s and 1970s. The second list is constantly changing as I watch more, read more, and listen more to others. Hope this is of some value to you mate.



RE your comments on my list: I am a big B-Hop fan, I think he is a genuine ATG middleweight, and I think he deserves his place. That won't change on my lists.

I don't see the importance of Trinidad's and Mosley's performances against Oscar. Surely the fact that Tito has beaten much more good fighters than Shane throughout his career means more than displays against 1 opponent in a p4p discussion??

 

Cheers Pea, your input is always apprecated, I will do some more reading on them this week and see if I can get hold of some more footage - as I am yet to be convinced! :good

 

:happy

 

If you saw Mosley beating DLH twice and saw Tito loosing to DLH, how can you rate Tito higher than Mosley?

Is this really how you make your decisions when compiling a pound-for-pound list? It seems bizarre to me to reduce two fighters' careers to their performances versus one opponent. Have you ever heard the saying "styles make fights"? Have you ever considered that by this logic, Ricardo Mayorga is a greater fighter than Oscar (Mayorga-Forrest-Mosley-Oscar) ? And FYI, Mosley did not deserve the decision v Oscar in their second fight, no way. I prefer to look at fighters' whole careers, resumes, and both good and bad performances before I decide on p4p ratings.



I agree with you entirely that Oscar beat Tito, I had it a clear 116-112. However, I think the rest of Tito's resume is much, much better than Mosley's. Take away the De La Hoya fights from Mosley's resume and what do you have? Wins over Holiday, Collazo, two over a well past-prime Vargas, and defeats to Forrest (twice), Wright (twice) and Cotto. I think that's a weak resume, not even a decent one. IMO, Trinidad's is significantly stronger.


On the question of Hopkins v Morales, I definitely give the edge to Hopkins.

It's strange to me that you bring up Morales's wins over Pac and Barrera as your main reasons - surely the fact that Erik lost both series is not exactly a point that makes you think he should be higher than Hopkins?? By your earlier logic regarding Mosley-Trinidad-De La Hoya, that means that Morales MUST be below both.

Hopkins's top 5 wins: Trinidad, Tarver, Wright, De La Hoya, G.Johnson

Morales's top 5 wins: Pacquiao, Barrera, Jones, Chi, Chavez/Ayala

Now, let me begin by saying I think Morales's resume is better than Hopkins's (FYI, I think Barrera's is better than Morales's). However, that is not the only consideration in making a pound-for-pound rating. Hopkins's best wins are all good wins IMO, so it's not as if resume destroys his claim to be ranked higher than Erik. Basically, I thought Hopkins was an ATG middleweight, a true modern master in the ring. As it is my list, I value my own opinion of a fighter's ability. I thought Hopkins was a better middleweight than Morales was a featherweight.

You have put forward a good case for Morales, but it seems to only take resume into consideration. Oscar De La Hoya has a better resume than Roy Jones Jr, but he is nowhere near as great a fighter pound-for-pound IMO. I think when most knowledgable boxing journalists/fans make their p4p lists, Hopkins will be slightly above Morales, and I think this is fair. But I respect your opinion that it's Morales, they are both greats IMO and there is not much between them. There is not much separating Lewis up to Morales on my list.