Shannon Briggs - The Champion

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MaccaveliMacc, Sep 9, 2024.


  1. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,453
    6,689
    Feb 27, 2024
    According to the lineal theory, the lineal champion is the rightful champion of the division. So Shannon Briggs defeating George Foreman became the king of heavyweights when he beat the man who beat the man.

    The lineal champion is also called "the people's champion" as he is crowned by the boxing public. How can you be the people's champion if 99% of the boxing observers don't even know you are the champion? How can you place Shannon Briggs over Evander and Lennox in 1997? They had alphabet titles with no claims to the lineage, but yet, they reigns (especially Holyfield's) seem way more legitimate.

    Let's make a historical analogy. When we look at it, boxing is kind of like an elective/hereditary monarchy. The new "dynasty" is elected when the new champion emerges and if he's beaten, he's passing his hereditary rights to the throne. That's the lineage. But, if the boxing public crowns champions, it can also dethrone them right? Just like monarchs were sometimes dethroned by the estates of the realm. We had a lot of monarchs with hereditary rights to some thrones, but the throne was occupied by another person. So they weren't kings. At least at the time.

    George Foreman was dethroned when he refused to fight his mandatory, got a gift with Schulz and then got stripped off of last alphabet belt, for not wanting to rematch him. How can he be the king with no physical manifestation of his status? Ali had the hereditary rights to the throne, but during his absence Joe Frazier was "elected" the new king. Ali could claim he was still the champion. But why anyone had to respect this claim? Even Nat Fleischer, the big proponent of the lineal motto "championship can only be won and lost in the ring", withdrew his championship acclaim from Ali, when he opted to walk away for some time in Feb 1970. How can Fury be the king of the division if nobody viewed him as such from at least Feb 2018 to Feb 2020? Some people didn't even know he was the champion.

    If we accept that public crowns the lineal champion, shouldn't we accept the fact that the public can also dethrone them? Whether we like it or not, alphabet bodies are part of the public. If the champion doesn't hold any real title (and remember, not every boxing historian accepts the concept of the lineage), can he be called the champion, let alone the king? The public clearly withdrew their support for Foreman and Fury, so can they still be the people's champs?

    Isn't the best manouver out of this just to accept the belt holder with lineal claim as the rightful champion? So the next rightful champion after Foreman would be Lewis. He had a physical manifestation of the championship (WBC belt) and added the lineal claim when he beat Shannon Briggs. Tyson Fury would be the champion until Feb 2018 (when The Ring stripped him) and then from Feb 2020 to May 2024 after being beaten by Usyk.
     
  2. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

    29,619
    36,195
    Jan 8, 2017
    It's a shame George didn't fight Lewis instead of Briggs, that would have kept it clear.
    But no way was old George gonna face Lewis.
     
    Stevie G, Smoochie and zadfrak like this.
  3. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

    26,676
    17,728
    Apr 3, 2012
    Lineal champions are destined to degrade over time and become extinct unless you keep creating new lineages. It isn’t a Shannon Briggs problem.
     
  4. Wladimir

    Wladimir Active Member Full Member

    1,264
    915
    Sep 5, 2024
    Let's go champ©
     
  5. NewChallenger

    NewChallenger Member Full Member

    361
    328
    Oct 17, 2020
  6. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,202
    10,675
    Feb 13, 2024
    I think people have a hard time accepting that the champion, at any given moment, may not be the best fighter in the division (or even, in some cases, a very good one!). Nevertheless, in all other professions, lesser people rise above more gifted or dedicated ones all the time. This isn’t any different.

    We can be thankful that at least in Boxing, such men as Briggs - gifted the crown against a near 50-year-old - don’t stay on top for long. Nevertheless, he was the champion. I don’t like the fact, but it’s fact nonetheless.
     
    KO KIDD and Shay Sonya like this.
  7. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,453
    6,689
    Feb 27, 2024
    Hence the question - how can you be the champion if 99% of the public doesn't even know you are one.
     
    dinovelvet and cross_trainer like this.
  8. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,202
    10,675
    Feb 13, 2024
    It’s a good question. I think at the time the idea of public recognition was floated, Boxing was very much front & center in the public mind. That had, of course, changed by 1997. But if his fight with Foreman wasn’t for the linear title, why did it happen & what was it for?
     
  9. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,453
    6,689
    Feb 27, 2024
    The fight between Foreman and Briggs was to determine Lewis' next opponent. It wasn't billed as a championship fight. It was promoted as a "heavyweight clash" and Foreman was being portrayed as "2 time heavyweight champion". His lineal title wasn't mentioned until the decision, where Briggs was announced "new linear champion". Funnily enough, nobody mentioned it when Briggs was facing Lewis. He was viewed as a contender and Lewis was viewed as the champion. It was viewed as Lewis giving him the title shot, his first championship fight. If the lineal champion is the real king, it should be another way around, right?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2024
  10. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

    51,134
    25,317
    Jan 3, 2007
    I don’t give as much credence to the law of lineage as some people do. Shannon Briggs claim to be “ the champ “ had validity to a limited degree but it was very weak.
     
  11. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,748
    4,170
    Jan 6, 2024
    In Briggs case the judges made him lineal champ not the public. The whole point of lineal champs is its the most objective way to do things. The public(the boxing one) only gets a say when a lineage ends and its time to decide who fights for a new one. Briggs won the fight. If you think it was a robbery then Foreman would still have a claim but he retired so it didn't matter.

    Roy Jones is the only "peoples champion" I can think of where the public handed him the lineage.

    Also Briggs almost shocked the world against Lennox and won another alphabet belt. He wasn't just a random guy Foreman fought.
     
  12. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,202
    10,675
    Feb 13, 2024
    I do view it as the other way around. But I guess reasonable minds can disagree. Once belts started cropping up all over the place, that muddies the water for some, & not so much for others.
     
    Shay Sonya likes this.
  13. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,202
    10,675
    Feb 13, 2024
    It was weak…but only in my view because Briggs didn’t really win the fight. Of course, it doesn’t help that Lewis was better, & everybody knew it, but that isn’t really the point.
     
    Shay Sonya likes this.
  14. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

    51,134
    25,317
    Jan 3, 2007
    You could say Shannon was “ Linear “ but it really didn’t mean much to me. Lineage doesn’t carry as much weight for me as it does for some
     
    Ney likes this.
  15. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,453
    6,689
    Feb 27, 2024
    I don't care if Foreman was robbed or not. Briggs officially won the fight. So the lineage went to him. Just like Schulz officially lost it, but should have gotten the nod.

    My point was, Briggs was inheriting a very weak claim. To the point, that he was viewed as a contender to Lewis, not the superior champ, which the lineal champion should be. Which shows the lineal title is nothing without any physical manifestation of it. Situation would be of course different, if The Ring crowned champions in the 90's. But the thing is - they didn't. So the lineal title was more subjective.
     
    HistoryZero26 likes this.