Shannon Briggs vs. Primo

Carnera's nonexistent defense allowed the windmiller to hit him at will with his hardest punches. Didn't put Carnera away.

Of course he'll hurt him. So did Louis. So did Baer. Neither put Carnera down for the count.

Unless you're a Carnera fan who believes that Carnera had unnoticed defensive skills, I don't think it matters how crude or windmilling Baer was. He hit Carnera flush, a lot, and didn't put him away early.

Do you consider Briggs a better overall puncher than Louis? Not just harder (I think you give Shannon a marginal advantage in power) but a better finisher, more accurate, etc.?

EDIT: If not, why do you believe Briggs puts Carnera away sooner? He's not going to be hitting Carnera more consistently, or all that much harder, or more accurately, or with better set-up punches, and Shannon's workrate is a lot lower than Louis's. And it's not like Shannon Briggs has (or needs!) ultra-sophisticated modern skills compared to Louis. They're both throwing punches at a defenseless oaf, right? Unless you think Shannon is a much better finisher?

 

Well there you have it then.

He probably wouldn't be able to take Carnera out, before he ran out of gas, and became a punch bag.

 

Well it took Baer 11 rounds to get Carnera out of there.

I guarantee that Briggs would not be able to put a beating on Carnera for 11 rounds.

Carnera is going to survive his onslaught, and then he is going to take over.

 

Yeah, I don't see any other option.

The detractors' version of Carnera was skill-less enough that he was essentially a slow target. Even if Shannon is a lot more skilled at delivering his punches than Baer or Louis, it doesn't matter. They're all teeing off on a mobile punching bag. And it took Louis 6 rounds to chop down the punching bag. Took Baer 11 rounds. Carnera wasn't knocked cold either time.

The best remaining play is to downgrade Louis's skills and punching power. If he couldn't take Carnera out, he couldn't have been very good. Especially since Louis said that Carnera "had nothing", thereby confirming Carnera's utter helplessness to stop Louis hitting him.

 

I like that "Joe Louis reference". Your hopelessly clamped to the "n = 1 Louis couldn´t - theory", do you?
Okay lets play that game. I wont bring Tillis (Tyson), Forte (Foreman) or Billups (Lewis) to nullify that, but we can stick that directly to Carnera.

Not marginal, a good margin ahead in therms of a real HW power*chin baseline (beeing much higher in modern HW than in Louis era).
I see Louis is some sort of special reference for you. Lets play that game. Since the great Louis couldn´t put Carnera away earlier, for how long do you see Carnera making it against:

George Foreman
Mike Tyson
Lennow Lewis
?

I mean, he did it 6 against Louis. He should be an "ATG Survivor", isn´t he?

Everything above should answer this.

 

Does that look like a behavior of letting guys of the hook when beeing hurt? Windmilling like a crude Baer, needing 11 rounds for a punch drunk? Does it look like that?

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Anybody can look impressive knocking out sub par opposition.

Baer was knocking out a higher class of opposition than Briggs.

 

No. I am literally trying to work out YOUR opinion of Louis as a puncher.

Who cares about my opinion of Louis? Just tell me what your assessment of his abilities as a puncher are, compared to Briggs. That was my question.

I didn't ask about chin. We were talking about Louis as a puncher.

So is Louis now "a good margin" behind Briggs as a puncher?

Well, he's somebody I thought you accepted as a good puncher, but apparently I was mistaken.

I mentioned Baer, too, but didn't put as much weight on him because I assumed you thought he couldn't punch very well.

If Tyson, Foreman, or Lennox Lewis battered a helpless, skill-less Carnera for 6 rounds, and couldn't knock him cold, then I wouldn't expect Briggs to be able to do it before his stamina runs out.

If Tua, Morrison, or Ruddock battered a helpless, skill-less Carnera for 6 rounds and couldn't knock him cold, then I wouldn't pick Briggs to be able to do it before his stamina runs out.

If you don't believe Louis was in the same league as any of those guys as a puncher, then all you have to do is answer the question that way. I am using *your* assumptions here.

 

I missed this on my first circuit.

Are you seriously comparing Primo Carnera to TILLIS?

Tillis knew how to box. Tillis had defense. Tillis could move. Great galloping Google, man! He had occasional moments of competitiveness with Mike frickin Tyson.

Carnera's defense was to lower his hands and allow his opponent to hit him with an overhand right.

Tillis was able to get lucky and avoid Tyson's attacks with his boxing skills. What heretofore undetected boxing skills, aside from blocking overhand rights with his chin, did Carnera defend himself with against Louis and Baer?

The sad truth is that both guys hit the big oaf as often as they wanted, with whatever they wanted, and needed more time to stop him than Briggs had stamina for.

(Unless Briggs is a *significantly* better puncher than Baer or Louis...?)

 

Do you believe Max could not have accomplished it earlier had he cut out the clowning and got down to business?

 

Anyone here that was actually alive when Carnera was fighting? Just wondering.

 

Wow, someone with the name GOAT Primo Carnera saying he had decent recovery.
What a surprise.

 

Carnera did beat Sharkey who was better than Briggs

 

I was going to say Briggs all the way but there are some decent arguments here for Carnera. This may not be all one way traffic.

 

Maybe he would have fitted in perfectly in Carnera’s era then?