Shannon Briggs vs. Primo

Not true, his two fights with Stribling were rehearsed fakes.The fact that he was losing against 4th rater Roy Clark until a gun was pulled on Clark indicates two things,he was always in danger of being defeated by nobodies and his wins over better opposition should be treated with extreme caution!

 

All the supporting evidence I’ve seen has left me with reasonable doubt.

However let’s assume that they definitely were fixed fights. Isn’t weird that his team fixed fights for soft touches, and then sent him out to fight guys like Sharkey, Loughran, Uzcudun, Gastanaga, etc whom he beat?

If he can beat Ranked fighters, why did he need help fixing fights with 5-11 fighters??

 

Did Louis carry him for 6 rounds?
Did Baer carry him for 11?

If not, why did it take these elite punchers so long to KO a guy who needed a gun to beat a 5-11 fighter??

Joe freakin Louis needed 6 rounds to beat a complete fraud who needed to fix some incredibly easy matchups? You can’t make me believe that Louis was that bad.

 

Baer could have gotten him out of there a lot sooner if he had wished,I'm convinced of that,he was having fun in there. Because Carnera went into the 6th with Louis and into the 11th with Baer ,his fights with Clark and Chevalier weren't fixed? Is that what you are saying? If it isn't ,what exactly are you saying?

 

Briggs taking a humungous beating from Vitali ,and having his eye-socket smashed but never going down and trying win all through ,puts him above that.Nobody paid any of Briggs opponents to lay down.

 

His corner obviously did ,otherwise why would they take the steps they did?

 

How many ranked fighters did he beat in fights over which there isnt a huge question /qualifying mark?

 

Correct, that's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying, or rather implying, is that using the fixed fights allegations to downgrade his ability as a fighter doesn't hold much water when the fights were against sub-journeymen. Especially in light of his performances on the world stage against top level fighters.

 

I don't accept his performances were that convincing, the best fighters he faced nearly killed him and so did some journeymen.If you accept the 2nd Sharkey fight was legit,[I don't ,]Sharkey was out of shape.Loughran was outweighed by over 80lbs.Schaaf was a dead man walking, Uzcudun was a back number,Neusel quit.

What else is there in his portfolio to get excited about?

 

And you think all of those fighters were easier matchups than the soft touches he is alleged to have fixed?

 

I´ve little time for posting. You did absolutely not get my presupposed insight of Louis and Briggs difference. Is Louis in general the more effective puncher? I think yes.
Is Herbie Hide in general (avarage of all kinds of opponents) the better, more effective puncher than Briggs? I think so yes. Would Hide or Louis deal more damage to defensiveless oafed boxers like Primo? The answer for me is NO, because a heavy handed, but maybe slower plumper puncher will deal more damage if there´s a static face to unload on.

Whos the better puncher, Louis or Foreman? Some might argue its Louis. Will he KO2 Norton and Frazier? Argubly not! But Louis would shine against a less powerful mover like Young. When Louis was a surgeon, Briggs was a butcher. Who can deal more damage per time to an unmobile patient? A butcher! Who can strike a driving vehicle more times, a rifle or a bazooka? A: Rifle. What will deal more damage on the hit? The bazooka. Would you bet on Louis - Joe Frazier KO2? No! Because it won´t matter that much when Frazier runs into Louis, while running into Foreman like that is sucidal. Difference: Raw heavy handed power.

Imagine Bonecrusher Smith unloading a right to a static target: Alot of damage! A moving, not very durable fighter like Marvis made it the distance. Another fighter were Joe Louis might shine.

You do get why the n = 1 Louis example might be alot less worth than the styles and attributes of certain fighters? Coming to the next replys:

You absolutely didn´t get anything. As you didn´t understand the meaning of a Tillis, Forte, Billups for powerpunchers like Tyson, Foreman and Liston DESPITE beeing extremly durabale.
These fighters survived the "best" punchers when nobody would suggest them to do so. You can add Machen and Sonny Liston, who made it the distance while getting KO1 by Johansson. What does it tell you?

Its styles plus chance of the day. Simple as that. Like Tyson said: "There are fighters who refuse to get down.", or Larry Merchant said: "Fighters who do not cooperate (despite getting tagged)." Witherspoon KO1 Tillis, Frank Bruno beat the **** out of him. Every Tyson has its Mitch Green, every Foreman has its Forte/Peralta

But its not like they didn´t get hit: And that is exactly the difference between "unsuspected survivors" and Louis vs. Carnera: You can just see by his style on film that he got tagged without much problem, for either Baer, Louis, Sharkey or even the other fights on film! Its simply more than n = 1! A unmobile fighter who was very hittable.

Which of course is poison against any Frank Bruno, Shannon Briggs, Tommy Morrison or Ike Ibeabuchi. For me a fighter like that will always look horrible against heavy handed fighters. Like Joe Frazier, getting up won´t make it any better (Foreman), unless your amateurish crude like Baer.

Carnera would look better against good boxers with less power, even if his face would eat jabs.

 

Sure, like not knocking out circus clowns, wrestlers or fighters weighting 60 pounds less than yourself in comparable spectacular fashion is a much better proof of anything! Now I´ve read everything in therms of opposition contrast

 

BULL****! 37 - 13 Jack "Losing to dozen random fighters" Sharkey was NOT better H2H than Briggs!! And never 7 days a week twice on sundays if you add two weightclasses to the 190-Sharkey-powderpuff-era, like Briggs fought.

In truth you know this

 

Ok. Thanks.

So Briggs is a significantly harder puncher for you than Louis. But Louis is a more effective puncher because of greater skill in landing punches.

However, you don't think it takes skill to land on Carnera, so Briggs's significantly greater punching force is all that matters.

That answers my question.

I think your opinion on Louis's pure hitting power is different from the ESB consensus, but that's fine, since I was asking about your opinion specifically.

Yeah, I agree with that, in general. But I think that the faster, more precise surgeons can also be more damaging even against stationary oafs, because the punches are better placed and the victim doesn't see them coming to stiffen for impact.

I'm still not sure what the mathematical notation is conveying here. I get your points above though.

That they were all more skilled than Primo Carnera, and could use their skills to reduce the chance that a fight-ending punch would land?

If these fighters had been totally defenseless like ESB's Carnera, they wouldn't survive fighting any of the guys you cited.

But ESB Carnera would survive such a fight for longer than Briggs has stamina, because we see him absorbing undefended punches in droves on film, and we know he can't defend punches.

I still don't get the math notation, since I am not a logician, mathematician, or computer programmer.

But even the guys you mentioned had some defense. That's how they avoided getting hit with every punch thrown. Carnera, as you rightly point out, did not have defense. Almost everything got through.

I don't recall Baer's amateurish skills preventing Baer from hitting Carnera at will. It's been a while since I saw the film though; I'm going from memory.

Baer might have needed skill to land on someone like Tillis or Green, but he didn't need skill to land on ESB Carnera.

(Also, Foreman was horrible and amateurish as well, but that's an unrelated debate.)

 

Yes I do get your point. But you should also see how that sounds: Heavy Handed Briggs beating the **** out of Carnera dropping him dozens of times, unless he gets tired and Carnera takes over. Too much comic for me.
Not with a puncher in Briggs class.

You should know that I think Max Baer is a horrible overrated fighter H2H and a par excellence example of what a much bigger, much higher power*chin baseline fighter like him can do to an era with fighters much lighter than him, even beeing very crude and tactic-less.

Plus I do think you overexaggerate Briggs stamina issues. But I get your point.