Shannon Briggs vs. Primo

You have a penchant for going completely off piste and attempting to put words in peoples mouths,strangely both the other two Marciano die hards attempt the same.Do you want to debate or play silly buggers? Because at my age I haven't got time to waste.

 

Haha. Yes, I know exactly how absurd it sounds.

I guess you could avoid the Homer Simpson vs Tyson scenario by either:

1) Deciding that maybe Carnera had some defensive skills after all, or

2) Arguing that Baer toyed with Carnera, and wasn't really trying to knock him out for most of the fight, or

3) Arguing that Baer didn't have high-end power, and only looked powerful because he was fighting in an era of terrible fighters with no durability.

 

It's a genuine question that follows the line of argument.
I understand you don't like where the logic goes.
Guess the towel is thrown.

 

It's a totally irrelevant question as it pertains to the thread. You haven't made any argument whatsoever ,just some silly whimsical asides that have no connection to the subject at all.

 

Sure

 

You can take all three of them as true (1 of course depends on the level) and also see that argument 3 diminishes Carneras H2H-level when paired against the bigger HWs of today/modern. Its also true that alot of HWs in Carneras era were under 6'1" and therefore had some trouble with his size/height alone, wrestling tactics etc., when talking about about defensive skill but as well as his power too. If you take 3) as true, you´ll get even more problems in fantasy fights uncluding Carnera.

And yes, we can skip the "Unsuspected Survivor" debate when just duscussing hit-ability. I wanted to bring on that styles of Louis - Carnera made him survive (alot) better than someone should expect from his and Louis attributes.

 

I'd like to hear that argument, if you wouldn't mind.

 

As to Baer's power -- I don't see much way around the idea that he hit extremely hard, since as far as I can tell Baer makes even Foreman look like a technician.

If Baer didn't have freakish power, his performances against contenders are very hard to explain. Even 30s contenders. I mean, the man doesn't look like he could box, so where are the successes coming from?

 

Its what I wrote above, what Green/Tillis, Forte and Machen is to Tyson, Foreman and Liston is Carnera to Louis in therms of valueing the ability of a survivor too high. These guys got punched too, some refused to get down and some just got up. Carnera did get up alot (and I give him credit for recovery here). For example I think Tyson did indeed hit Green/Tillis on the chin, but just couldn´t maximize in the way he used too.
I think these are style-outliers:

This just happends to KO-artists with 90+% KO-ratio some very minor times. And I think these are outliers of the avarage KO-artist opponent by just fitting in a slight chance of what the "so complete KO-artist" just can not handle in the expected way, the "little lack of making a 100% complete perfect puncher".

It would mean that you´d overrate the avarage durability/chin of these Tillis, Greens, Fortes, Machens and Carneras.

Which I think, when you look at it the other way around, is indeed true, when thinking about "Were Tillis, Green, Forte, Machen and Carnera extremly durable fighters in general?".
But your true with that Carnera did get up significantly more than the others (but maybe was not dazed that much).

Its also either Louis beeing very overrated in raw power, or you let Louis-type punchers fight Carnera 10 more times with him getting KO´d before round 6 most of the times. Maybe the truth is in between.

About Baer: Often thought in his films that he just did not connect that well due to throwing raw punches. I think he could have done better regarding his landing of power-shots, for example with modern training/advising.

 

Since you were generous enough to lay all of your assumptions on the table, I'll do the same for mine now.

I think Louis was a harder puncher than you do, though a young Briggs probably hit harder tyan Louis. Young Briggs had extremely fast hands, though, and was more aggressive than Louis, despite Louis's own preference for knocking people out.

I think the Carnera faction is probably right that Carnera had more skill than he appears to have on film, since otherwise he should have been whacked out earlier and more often than he was. I don't think that Carnera's chin was good enough to absorb dozens of undefended punches, which means his defense must have been OK.

I think Baer hit as hard, or harder than Briggs, but didn't have the same killer instinct in the Carnera fight. He was awkward, and his weird "style" allowed him to land his overhand right, but he didn't have Briggs's early aggression or handspeed. He let Carnera off the hook, just like he did Braddock.

IMO, Briggs has enough speed and skill to overcome Carnera's defensive abilities, and will force the stoppage by round 4 or so, after lots of knockdowns.

 

Also, Louis was punching upward. Baer's overhand was perfect to clobber taller fighters, and Briggs could achieve a similar effect by just being taller than Louis or Baer.

 

Nothing wrong with that!

I´m still not so sure about Louis H2H. He looks incredible in some occasions, on the other hand I think his opposition was not very good. He just missed some sort of modern HW-types, for me Louis is still very difficult to value against modern bigger men.

Carnera often waved his long thick arms in front of him "defensively", instead of avoiding punches and find himself ready in position to (counter)punch. Such utility might be tenable, in good cases delayed the fight, but not making him look better or bringing him into a winning position.
As I posted some time ago, Carnera was also a fighter who just could have done better via good advising which I also think is true about the phisically gifted Baer.

 

Or was Carnera in fact an over achiever, who got as far as his limited natural talent could take him?

You are right about Baer here, but I don't think that you are about Carnera.

 

This is where I lean, with my very limited knowledge of the period. Carnera looks pretty nimble for a man his size, and he does the weird tiptoes thing that a lot of 1920s boxers did. He might have done better with Emanuel Steward, but Steward didn't live in the 1920s or 30s.

It's not like the strongman community is overflowing with highly talented boxers. Carnera looks like a pretty committed technician to me. Not a good technician, but a strong, flexible, high-stamina guy who lacked somewhat in coordination, and tried to make up the gap with greater commitment to his era's technique.

 

You could equally ask how well would Primo have done without the assistance of the mob?