Shavers power quotes.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by JohnThomas1, Apr 24, 2012.

  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club Full Member

    9,690
    2,181
    Jun 30, 2005
    I've wondered at times whether that partly comes from the different experience of facing a guy you can beat versus a guy who crushes you.

    If an opponent is genuinely more skilful by enough of a margin, you might not understand what he's doing to you, and why nothing in your game seems to click. But if the skill level is closer (or if he's old enough to give you the margin of error to see what he's doing, as opposed to just overwhelming you), maybe you come away from the fight with more appreciation of his tricks.

    That's just a speculative theory, though.
     
  2. White Bomber

    White Bomber Active Member Full Member

    1,486
    865
    Mar 31, 2021
    Cause Shaver's power is grossly overrated.
     
    moneytheman12 likes this.
  3. White Bomber

    White Bomber Active Member Full Member

    1,486
    865
    Mar 31, 2021
    This content is protected
     
  4. White Bomber

    White Bomber Active Member Full Member

    1,486
    865
    Mar 31, 2021
    And that doesn't tell you anything ?!
     
    cross_trainer likes this.
  5. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club Full Member

    9,690
    2,181
    Jun 30, 2005
    Is this your blog, or another person who uses the same rating system?
     
  6. White Bomber

    White Bomber Active Member Full Member

    1,486
    865
    Mar 31, 2021
    Tyson did no threw an overhand right, he threw a 1-2 combo, a left jab (which basically had no power in it and was just for setup), followed by a short straight right.
    Shavers got to put all his bodyweight behind the punch, Tyson didn't.
     
  7. White Bomber

    White Bomber Active Member Full Member

    1,486
    865
    Mar 31, 2021
    I don't have any blogs, but thanks for thinking it was me.
     
    cross_trainer likes this.
  8. White Bomber

    White Bomber Active Member Full Member

    1,486
    865
    Mar 31, 2021
    Get real. Cooper hurt Ali way more with a single punch, and that Ali hadn't been through any wars unlike the 75 Ali.

    Ali was not hit flush with big punches by those fearsome punchers (Liston and Foreman)
     
    moneytheman12 likes this.
  9. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club Full Member

    9,690
    2,181
    Jun 30, 2005
    You're welcome. I figured it was best to check and see whether it was your work, just to make sure I didn't say anything that might be taken as insulting.

    My take on that blog entry -- which is clearly part of a larger system of interpreting boxing -- is that it fetishizes numbers in a field that isn't (yet?) well adapted for that kind of approach. Heavyweight pro boxing is a risk averse field where contenders spend more time talking and knocking over inferior opponents than actually fighting each other. Their promoters also manipulate their ratings and records to a ridiculous degree.

    Consequently, it doesn't seem (to me, a non math major) that you have enough data on Earnie Shavers to draw the statistical conclusions he's drawing. He also appears to be assuming some kind of parity between historical eras and their conditions. That would need to be argued for.

    The approach that most boxing fans use -- and probably most gamblers and matchmakers -- is more "subjective", but it relies on tried-and-true human pattern recognition that works pretty well for most historical tasks. And, indeed, most tasks in general. What this guy is apparently trying to do is develop sociological laws of boxing, and it's ignoring the context in a very context heavy sport.

    By contrast, his method reaches conclusions that seem bizarre and unrecognizable to most people in the field he's analyzing. They also diverge from what the actual people who got punched by Shavers reported. These guys may not be "objective" reporters, but they are the only measuring devices you have around, barring a later discovery that Shavers was punching a calibrated force plate.
     
  10. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club Full Member

    9,690
    2,181
    Jun 30, 2005
    This is a good indication of what I'm talking about above, with my criticism of the boxing stats guy.

    Your post is pointing to your own observations of the fight itself on film. You are weighing the visual evidence, trying to figure out how hard these guys hit Ali, to put Shavers's punches in context. How hard, or how clean, a punch looks on 70s film isn't more solid as evidence than guys like Cobb telling you how hard he thought Shavers hit him.

    Nevertheless, you correctly trust the rules-of-thumb you've developed while watching and analyzing boxing. You believe that they will give you an accurate picture of Shavers's power. At least when combined with other contextual stuff, like who he's fighting, what stage his opponent's career is at, etc. This is very different from feeding weights and round lengths into an Excel file like the boxing stats guy appears to be doing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
  11. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,434
    6,066
    Mar 23, 2019
    You spoke my mind. It's kind of a silly premise to begin with, and the stats are invalid due to excluding eminently important, inherently capricious variables...such as rigorous contextualism.
     
    Entaowed and cross_trainer like this.
  12. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,434
    6,066
    Mar 23, 2019
    I notice this thread has brought out certain people here whose seemingly main reason for being here is to be naysayers to boxing wisdom that has accrued well over a century of the sport.

    On the other hand, without some sort of dissent this forum would be very boring. However, it's often amusing to witness the Relentlessly, Willfully Contrary.
     
    cross_trainer likes this.
  13. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,434
    6,066
    Mar 23, 2019
    Actually, yes he was. Watch the fights again, my friend.
     
    Boxingfan2 and JohnThomas1 like this.
  14. White Bomber

    White Bomber Active Member Full Member

    1,486
    865
    Mar 31, 2021
    One thing I'd like to point out, that has been said here a while back by another poster (can't remember exactly who): when Shavers punched, he usually put everything he had into his punches, all his bodyweight. This generates a lot of power, but it also leaves you vulnerable in case you miss, off balance and easy to hit/counter.
    Other top HWs don't usually do that unless they have their man hurt. But if they did, their punches would also be a lot harder.
     
    moneytheman12 likes this.
  15. White Bomber

    White Bomber Active Member Full Member

    1,486
    865
    Mar 31, 2021
    I have. Neither managed to land on him the way Shavers did.