Shavers vs Williams - battle of the contenders.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by JohnThomas1, Aug 12, 2021.

Shavers or Williams.

  1. Shavers wins.

  2. Williams wins.

  3. I have no stones.

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    it’s mentioned in the commentary but I guess you did not want to watch the fight because you won’t want to have seen Shavers dealing with a similar size & shaped opponent to Williams who had equal wins at a similar level to him.

    I do not deny Weaver was nobody back then. He’s a name worth mentioning though. If Williams knocked out a debut Floyd Patterson or Ingo johansson you would be all over it. and within your right to mention it.

    it’s as close to a signature knockout win as Smith has. I don’t think you know much about Larry Middleton. If you watch him the guy is identical to Tony Tucker. He had a good career actually. He is at least the level of Williams best wins. He’s above Billy Daniels, Alex Metiff and john Holman. Middleton broke Joe Bugners jaw and beat him out of sight in London. He gave Jerry Quarry and Ken Norton very good fights. Close fights. He lost to a prime Quarry by just a quarter of a point. On that form I think he could match Machen and Terrell in 50-50 fights.

    Smith was fighting Clark for the California State title. It is the identical level as Cleveland competing for the Texas State title against Terry Daniels..a win on par with anything Williams achieved. so it is the exact same comparison here. The recent loss to Shavers ended a very good run that had gotten Clark an Indian summer world rating in one of the best eras in heavyweight boxing. If the comparison is Williams, then it’s a solid win. Don’t forget Smith actually knocked Middleton out. Whereas your guy Williams is the best puncher without a signature knockout win.
     
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  2. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    So one of Smith's best wins is on the same level as a win Williams scored when he was 38 years old and just months away from final retirement? Not the most convincing of arguments that they had similar careers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
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  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    They had different careers. Williams was longer and much more interesting. But if you list the handful of decent names they each beat and put them side by side where’s the difference? Middleton- Terrell, Clark-Billy Daniels, Bordeaux-miteff. It’s all a much of a muchness.

    And I’m comparing the Terrell Williams actually beat to the Middleton Smith fought before anyone thinks Terrells later career amounts to so much more than Larry Middleton.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
  4. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    Not even going to try and defend the Terry Daniels reference? Probably wise.

    As for the rest, it's laughable. Billy Daniels was a prime, ranked contender whose only loss was to Cassius Clay. Clark was unranked, overweight, hadn't won a fight in 2 years, and retired immediately after meeting Smith. "All much of a muchness", indeed.
     
  5. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You ruined the trap I set up for Chok regarding Terry Daniels! :lol:
     
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  6. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    Sorry! I know I should just leave this kind of thing to you really, since you're the one who has the patience and stamina to go through his stuff line by line. But once in a while there's something that's just too inane to be left alone.
     
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  7. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Thing is I DON'T have the patience! Believe me I'd much rather ignore the garbage he spouts, but sometimes he just says things so blatantly dishonest, misleading, or agenda driven, I can't help but get sucked into it. Even when I try to disengage and just stop responding, I'm unable to do so.
     
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    no matter, Clark went into two fights with shavers after the best spell of his career. A spell that had him rated. He last fought Shavers in October and he fought Smith in January. When Williams beat Miteff he was also coming off a loss. When Williams beat Terry Daniels he was coming off a loss. When Williams beat john Holman he was coming off a loss. What’s the difference?

    smith fought Clark for the California state title. Williams fought Terry for the Texas State title. Deal with it. What’s wrong with the comparison? It’s not a lie.

    You two can tag team on me all you want but you haven’t come up and said why you think Cleveland Williams is so much better than a #6 rated heavyweight from the 1970s who had decent enough wins over enough name guys from that era (Middleton, Clark, Johnny Boudreaux, Weaver) to compare to the best wins Williams had over Billy Daniels, Miteff, Terrell and young Jack Johnson.

    what’s too inane? Smith was rated number 6. Smith did knock out a guy who beat Joe Bugner and he knocked him out before Ken Norton was lucky to stop him in the last round.

    where’s the garbage though? You don’t think Smith knocked out Larry Middleton? You don’t think Smith was rated in the top 6? You don’t think Smith was a comparable size to Cleveland Williams? Where is the garbage? You can disagree with the comparison because you don’t like that comparison but hold back on the garbage and dishonest angle because it won’t stand up.

    I don’t know if Williams can’t knock out Shavers and I don’t know if he can. If you don’t think Howard Smith resembles a similar type fighter to Cleveland Williams you can say it. But hold back on any silly accusations just because you don’t like it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    They've been within one vote of each other all the way along these two. A mouth watering match up and neither overly invokes the confidence to go out on a limb. A fine matchup.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2021
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  10. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    I'm dealing with it just fine. You're the one arguing that Smith, on his best day, was fighting at the same level as Williams when he was at the end of his career, 38 years old with part of a bullet still lodged inside him.
     
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  11. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Meh at least Terry Daniels was coming off some decent wins against Moore, Lincoln, and Ramos. Clark was in his 30s, at a career high weight, in the middle of a career ending losing streak, and coming off a brutal TKO loss.
     
  12. sweetsci

    sweetsci Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I think Howard Smith was a "wishful thinking" contender. Yes, he got up to #7 (then #6) in Ring after winning a split against then-undefeated Johnny Boudreaux. He then won the CA title against Clark via decision. (Clark was coming off two losses to Shavers and a draw to Jimmy Richards and would only fight once more. In Ring's annual rankings, he was unranked, unlike the deceased Oscar Bonavena and the retired Joe Frazier. That said, Clark had a good 1974.) Then Shavers blasted Smith in two, after which he had one more inconsequential fight before pulling out, on short notice, of a fight against Larry Holmes in September's "A Night With the Heavyweights."

    I think Cleveland Williams is miles above Howard Smith. The only ranked fighter Smith would ever beat was another "ranked higher than he should have been" fighter, Boudreaux. Let's not forget. This was the Ring / King / ABC US Championships period, when Ring's rankings were suspect.

    edit: By the time Howard Smith KO'd Larry Middleton, Middleton's days as a lower-top 10 contender were long over. Going into the Smith fight, Middleton hadn't fought in a year.

    As far as Cleveland Williams vs. Earnie Shavers, it's a pick'em.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2021
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  13. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Finally an about even matchup. I’ll take a moment to think about it
     
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