Shavers vs Williams - battle of the contenders.

So one of Smith's best wins is on the same level as a win Williams scored when he was 38 years old and just months away from final retirement? Not the most convincing of arguments that they had similar careers.

 

They had different careers. Williams was longer and much more interesting. But if you list the handful of decent names they each beat and put them side by side where’s the difference? Middleton- Terrell, Clark-Billy Daniels, Bordeaux-miteff. It’s all a much of a muchness.

And I’m comparing the Terrell Williams actually beat to the Middleton Smith fought before anyone thinks Terrells later career amounts to so much more than Larry Middleton.

 

Not even going to try and defend the Terry Daniels reference? Probably wise.

As for the rest, it's laughable. Billy Daniels was a prime, ranked contender whose only loss was to Cassius Clay. Clark was unranked, overweight, hadn't won a fight in 2 years, and retired immediately after meeting Smith. "All much of a muchness", indeed.

 

You ruined the trap I set up for Chok regarding Terry Daniels!

 

Sorry! I know I should just leave this kind of thing to you really, since you're the one who has the patience and stamina to go through his stuff line by line. But once in a while there's something that's just too inane to be left alone.

 

Thing is I DON'T have the patience! Believe me I'd much rather ignore the garbage he spouts, but sometimes he just says things so blatantly dishonest, misleading, or agenda driven, I can't help but get sucked into it. Even when I try to disengage and just stop responding, I'm unable to do so.

 

no matter, Clark went into two fights with shavers after the best spell of his career. A spell that had him rated. He last fought Shavers in October and he fought Smith in January. When Williams beat Miteff he was also coming off a loss. When Williams beat Terry Daniels he was coming off a loss. When Williams beat john Holman he was coming off a loss. What’s the difference?

smith fought Clark for the California state title. Williams fought Terry for the Texas State title. Deal with it. What’s wrong with the comparison? It’s not a lie.

You two can tag team on me all you want but you haven’t come up and said why you think Cleveland Williams is so much better than a #6 rated heavyweight from the 1970s who had decent enough wins over enough name guys from that era (Middleton, Clark, Johnny Boudreaux, Weaver) to compare to the best wins Williams had over Billy Daniels, Miteff, Terrell and young Jack Johnson.

what’s too inane? Smith was rated number 6. Smith did knock out a guy who beat Joe Bugner and he knocked him out before Ken Norton was lucky to stop him in the last round.

where’s the garbage though? You don’t think Smith knocked out Larry Middleton? You don’t think Smith was rated in the top 6? You don’t think Smith was a comparable size to Cleveland Williams? Where is the garbage? You can disagree with the comparison because you don’t like that comparison but hold back on the garbage and dishonest angle because it won’t stand up.

I don’t know if Williams can’t knock out Shavers and I don’t know if he can. If you don’t think Howard Smith resembles a similar type fighter to Cleveland Williams you can say it. But hold back on any silly accusations just because you don’t like it.

 

I'm dealing with it just fine. You're the one arguing that Smith, on his best day, was fighting at the same level as Williams when he was at the end of his career, 38 years old with part of a bullet still lodged inside him.

 

Meh at least Terry Daniels was coming off some decent wins against Moore, Lincoln, and Ramos. Clark was in his 30s, at a career high weight, in the middle of a career ending losing streak, and coming off a brutal TKO loss.

 

I think Howard Smith was a "wishful thinking" contender. Yes, he got up to #7 (then #6) in Ring after winning a split against then-undefeated Johnny Boudreaux. He then won the CA title against Clark via decision. (Clark was coming off two losses to Shavers and a draw to Jimmy Richards and would only fight once more. In Ring's annual rankings, he was unranked, unlike the deceased Oscar Bonavena and the retired Joe Frazier. That said, Clark had a good 1974.) Then Shavers blasted Smith in two, after which he had one more inconsequential fight before pulling out, on short notice, of a fight against Larry Holmes in September's "A Night With the Heavyweights."

I think Cleveland Williams is miles above Howard Smith. The only ranked fighter Smith would ever beat was another "ranked higher than he should have been" fighter, Boudreaux. Let's not forget. This was the Ring / King / ABC US Championships period, when Ring's rankings were suspect.

edit: By the time Howard Smith KO'd Larry Middleton, Middleton's days as a lower-top 10 contender were long over. Going into the Smith fight, Middleton hadn't fought in a year.

As far as Cleveland Williams vs. Earnie Shavers, it's a pick'em.

 

Finally an about even matchup. I’ll take a moment to think about it