I am using a lot of hindsight, but his amateur career looked brutal on paper, that had to catch up with him sooner or later.
Whatever, you're right. This conversation is going nowhere. Just a couple points, I'd like to touch. It's not true he'd fought only 8 minutes and 51 seconds in the two years prior to Patterson. You're conveniently leaving out his bout with Machen, that was a hard fought 12 rounder which would've undoubtedly prepared him much better than the Patterson blowouts. Also, Liston may very well have been short on rounds by the time he got Patterson (though not nearly to the extent that he was against Ali) but it doesn't take much preparation for a frozen fighter, and a stytistally favorable match-up. Had Patterson been able to extend the bout, this is something he very well may have been able to exploit. But yeah whatever I'll leave it at that, as I don't feel like addressing your other points, as I doubt you'll respond to any of them judging by the questions, challenges, and rebuttals of mine that you've ignored. Take care mate.
The Machen fight was more than 2 years before the Patterson fight. After that fight until the bell rang for Patterson I, he fought fewer than 9 minutes. And I addressed plenty of your points, like how you built an entire narrative around someone who claimed his life was ruined and he completely unraveled professionally because the witness saw his Adam’s apple quiver and he had a certain look in his eyes; and another poster on this forum wrote that he was boozing so heavily that he was a complete fall-down drunk (yet no evidence that this started after he won the title; he could have been doing so for years). Anyway, good day and let’s move along.
That's a very sad story, actually. In any event, the Liston shoulder injury evidence raises the further question pf how much credit Ali should get for the first Liston bout. One doesn't often see investigations and medical testimony for alleged injuries.
I came in here to mention Buster. He had that one night in Tokyo where he was amazing and showed what he could have been with real focus and discipline... and then that was it. Looked like his training camp for his next fight was located at the buffet. He did have some other good performances, but not like Tokyo.
You've made some excellent points, all of Sonny's weaknesses and bad circumstances seem to have converged on him vs Ali. Imagine what any other, at least 34 year old heavyweight who'd fought 5 minutes in the last 3 years. drank heavily , had an injured shoulder, and wasn't properly trained do against that version of Muhanned Ali?
Short prime? Ricky Hatton burned out quick at the top level Though he had 11 title defenses Pipino Cuevas was finished at the age of 25
