Shot Fighters-- #1 Indicator

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by elgrancampeon, Dec 8, 2008.


  1. elgrancampeon

    elgrancampeon Well-Known Member Full Member

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    There have been many debates on this topic. In my years of watching boxing, I have came to recognize what I believe to be the best indicator.
    It's not loss of speed, not loss of power, hell it's not even a physical degeneration (though that accompanies it too).

    No, the best indicator is the fighters willingness to pull the trigger.

    I know this is not shocking too many of you, you already know this but I will elaborate on why I think this is so.

    Example 1.

    The clearest example I can present on this is Julio Cesar Chavez late in his career. You could see it in Chavez' eye that he was well aware of what was going on. He would still walk his opponents down and cut the ring off but his head just did no let him throw. He wanted too! He really did! It was just his head would question him, causing him to lose the opportunity.

    Example 2.

    Another clear example is Evander Holyfield vs Sultan Ibragimov. Evander did not fear the younger man, he was not afraid of the power and he was in great physical shape. The reason he was not able to take advantage was that his head would just not let him throw. Don't beleive me though, go ahead and look it up and you can see for yourself.

    Example 3.

    I think you all know what is going to go here: Oscar De La Hoya. Now don't get me wrong, I have followed Oscars' entire career and think he did a lot of good for the sport. It's true that I wanted him to get humiliated like he did when he was fighting an ancient Chavez but I never though it would be such a shutout. Chavez put up a better fight, even rocking ODLH head with a vicious hook. Anyways, it was far more apparent in this case because ODLH was in with an extremely fast and skilled fighter. A prime ODLH would not hesitate to let his hands go.


    I guess it's sort of like a sad circle. Prime young fighters get their reputation beating old, battle scarred warriors. If PAC stays in the game for a long enough period, he too will suffer this fate.

    If you disagree please let me know what you think is a better indicator.

    Also if you think I am discreting PAC's win somehow, you are correct. Just like ODLH gets no credit from me for beating Chavez.
     
  2. Silvermags

    Silvermags Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    ...ANOTHER FUNNY indicator..

    When a fan does not want to give credit to a boxer and LOSSES to a supposedly highly regarded fighter. PAC beats MAB 1. MAB is suppose to win but losses!
    NEXT THING you will hear MAB IS SHOT!
    Morales losses to PAC. Morales is SHOT!
    NOBODY gave PAC a chance to win against ODLH. Some members even said that those who gave PAC a chance is stupid and delusional. A huge number of SPORTS writeres PREDICTED ODLH will win even the higly respected writer of yahoo sports kevin IOLE said ODLH will win... at the end of the day! PAC schooled ODLH!

    and what do we hear. ODLH is shot!

    YES! If anyone does not want to give anybody a credit! What do you say after the fight!
    He is shot!

    Damn! Why didn't they said that before the fight! It means it MEANS they don't want to give CREDIT from the start!

    BEST ANSWER! if a fan does not want to give CREDIT! call the defeated BOXER shot!

    CHEERS!
     
  3. Hadrian

    Hadrian Member Full Member

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    i totally agree (though I thought DLH was gonna kill PAc!)...maybe another example of your point would be roy jones...not sure he really lost sooo much from the weight drop post ruiz, though he lost some speed and maybe some strength...but it seemed like after he climbed that amazing mountaintop of going from mw all the way up, like a basic presence left him, a will, like he'd fulfilled his purpose and he was a shell.....maybe the "he looked like shell" observation we often hear made is as much to do with this loss of this undefined quality as much as anything else. sorry to get all esoteric and such on you guys ;)
     
  4. Hadrian

    Hadrian Member Full Member

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    silver-i certainly take nothing away from pac-it was an AMAZING thing he did...
     
  5. lionheart23

    lionheart23 New Member Full Member

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    pac gave em a whoopin . but i dont think he'd be able to do the same to another 147 lbs. that's in the prime of his carrer as well . Pac man is great there is no denying that, but in the end i want marquez - manny 3 and then we'll know if Manny is a true all-time great. Until then Manny has to get his due for making DLH quit .
     
  6. BlueApollo

    BlueApollo Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Interesting... I always look at a fighters legs for indicators of wear, but this makes all kinds of sense too. Oscar was fighting on some french fries this weekend also.
     
  7. BUDW

    BUDW Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Money,makes even the best soft,lose desire not in the condition they once were.
     
  8. CrazyMac

    CrazyMac Nearly ExArmy Full Member

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    I think it also depends on the fighter. In some fighters it the punch resistance that goes.
    LIONHEART23, I dont think a Marquez 3 fight would prove much. Marquez will be considered shot if Pac wins again.
     
  9. Zakman

    Zakman ESB's Chinchecker Full Member

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    I couldn't agree more with all of this, both in general, and with respect to De La Hoya and Trinidad.

    Older fighters just can't pull the trigger. But the reason for this, I think, is a little bit different that some have said. It's not so much "willingness," but ability. Mentally, they may know what they need to do, but their bodies do not respond the same way. They just don't have the reflexes of a younger man.
     
  10. Chert

    Chert Ringside Potato Full Member

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    this "can't pull the trigger" phrase came from roach's description of dlh in the second half of the pbf-dlh fight. does this mean that dlh was already shot when he fought mayweather? but why is it at dlh's very next fight, he dominated forbes to a very wide UD winning all the rounds? then at his next fight vs. pac, he is again said to be shot as he can't again "pull the trigger".

    can you therefore be shot when fighting Elite and A-level fighters but still be able to beat B-level and below competition?
     
  11. Beeston Brawler

    Beeston Brawler Comical Ali-egedly Full Member

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    Morales was shot by the second fight - but it was Pac who made him shot in the first place.
     
  12. elgrancampeon

    elgrancampeon Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Like I posted, it was made even more apparent by the fact that Manny is so quick. DLH had no time to second guess himself. Another factor in the DLH case was the weight loss. If someone disagrees they deserve a good slapping.

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    Look at that skin tone/build and compare it to ---

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    Notice the inflection of the cheeks, the lack of arm/shoulder muscle.

    Certainly the weight loss magnified the level of degeneration but he was well on his way there anyway.
     
  13. Little Pea

    Little Pea 'A' grade boxing fan Full Member

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    Sad pic. :-(
     
  14. elgrancampeon

    elgrancampeon Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Truly is...

    At first I was beyond happy that he got what he deserved for what he did to Chavez but that is wearing off now....

    Poor Oscar. Should of quit after Forbes fight.
     
  15. dangerousity

    dangerousity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    A good indicator is:

    When a fighter is not dominating guys he should dominate, ie: not scoring wide UD when other young champions are also getting UD's.

    Another indicator is:

    When they recently loose loopsided decision to the then current p4p #1. Surely shot fighters cant be taking p4p #1 to an SD.

    :)