Should 15 round title bouts return?

This is nostalgia overtaking common sense!

Look at the 1920s, where it wasn't uncommon for boxers to fight only weeks (sometimes days) apart... finishing up with career records of 100-200 (in some cases even more) pro fights. Does anyone really believe, that the majority of all these fights were grueling 15 round wars? Of course they weren't! Were talking about normal men... not some super-species with "near psychotic level of dedication and physical toughness and durability".

The vast majority of boxers back then never came close to a title shot. So why did they have all these fights... to hone their skills, thus becoming better boxers? No, of course not... the only thing they were dedicated to, was putting food on the table! And if that meant having to fight several times a month, that's what they did. Since their opponents were also trying to just survive, there must have been some kind of understanding to go easy on each other... so everybody could live to fight another day. Of course not all fights were like that - but I suspect many were.

 

YES!! Bring back 15 rounds

 

The old timers are laughing .... 15 rounds eh .. we were going 20, 25 plus they would say ... The powder puffs today who are brought along to fight once a year would have nothing to do with it ... Hell most of them won't even get in the ring with each other ...

 

That’s neither here nor there. The point being made in favor of the old timers starts simply enough: their minds and bodies were conditioned for it year round. That’s what fighting 10-15 times a year (more in many cases) does to you. Likewise with skills and overall poise in the ring. They stayed sharp and stayed in shape. They became at home inside those ropes. None of that applies anymore. Or at least not to the same extent.

2 fights a year is pushing it now. Fighters have to refamiliarize themselves with the fight process every training camp. There’s no muscle memory to do what used to come instinctively like a simple slip to the left of the incoming blow or a roll after your right cross, or a slip inside a jab with a counter over the top, etc. It all has to be constantly relearned.

This means there’s less comfortability in the ring. Fighters can’t get used to the spectacle of it when fighting just once every 6-12 months. So they’re generally more tensed up and nervous, coming out cold, burning up more of their reserves in the meantime. Training camps are better now, but they still don’t compare to the combination of a busy fight schedule plus those extra hours in the gym.

It’s nothing to do with genetics, it’s to do with adaptation. Fighters today don’t have to condition themselves like they used to because not nearly as much is demanded of them. So they don’t, and their performance suffers the consequences. Not sure I even recall the last non-title bout a champion participated in.

 

"They stayed sharp and stayed in shape". Who says so? I think it's more likely, that they just went through the motions in many (of course not all) of these fights... with the intention of doing as little as possible, so they came out unscathed, and ready for their next fight. Which, in many cases, was just around the corner!

The fact that, back in the day, boxers met the same opponents over and over again, likely helped create a mutual understanding, about going easy on each other.

Take, for example, Battling Levinsky, who had 10 fights against Jack Dillon... who in turn met George Chip 12 times. That's 22 fights among just 3 people!

Leo Houck met all 3 multiple times - and if we add him to the mix, we have 4 guys who fought each other a total of 34 times.

George KO Brown met those 4 a total of 18 times - so now we have 5 boxers, who generated 52 fights between them.

What do all these fights have in common? Yes, you guessed it... they all went the full scheduled distance! All 52 of them... not a single KO, TKO, RTD, or DQ. What does that tell you? Well, they could all have been really feather-fisted back then... or maybe they weren't trying too hard to kill each other?

Look at someone like Jack Britton, who holds the record for most pro fights by a world champion, 345. Needless to say, these could not all have been serious fights - not even back in the day when men were men (lol). So many times he likely put in just enough effort to avoid being thrown out for not trying.

That worked most of the time for him - but not always! In his 1928 fight with Floyd Hybert both men were booted for not trying - and earlier in his career he was thrown out in a fight with Phil. Pal Moore, for not giving his best. But when you realize, that this fight took place in Philadelphia, and that he had a 10-rounder in Brooklyn already the following night... then I think he should maybe be forgiven for not going all out in the first fight!

But this just goes to show, that boxing was very different back then, from what we see today. It was no doubt much tougher times, where boxers often had to fight many, many times just to make a living. All the credit in the world to them for being able to do that! I just don't believe, they were in these grueling 15 round wars every other week (not your words, I know).

Anyway, all this has little to do with whether or not today's boxers could adapt, if it was suddenly decided to revert back to 15 rounds championship fights. I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to do that - which is really the only point I'm trying to make in this thread.

 

It's really easy to make tons of big claims, about what everyone was doing.

Actually going through the evidence is a lot more work. That's why people love just making stuff up based on "what makes sense to me", or "what sounds right to me", rather than the hard work of looking at the evidence.

 

Lets look at some evidence, Battling Levinsky and Jack Dillon, 1914, from March to June, in this period they fought twice, with Dillon having 8 fights, and Levinsky having 12. (Reports will be next day unless otherwise stated)

1914-03-03 Jack Dillon Vs Fireman Jim Flynn
The Kansas City Times (page 6)
"Youth must be served" an old saying in the ring—and youth did serve manfully last night, for youthful Jack Dillon, age 23, bombarded Jim Flynn, ten years older and the veteram of thirteen warring years, in a 10-round bout, scored three knockdowns, but earned only his share of a healthy purse and the plaudits of the crowd. Dave Porteous, looked upon the entire torrid affair in a benign manner and when the gong announced the end of the lurid session he failed to locate either man and raised alof both arms, the sign of a draw.
The writer gives Flynn all the credit for his game and determined battle. The writer knows Flyn never loafed, never broke ground under the most distressing circumstances and was battling away like a tiger at the finish, but this doesn't help the case of the youthful Dillon, who scored three clean knock-downs in the second peiod and held the great lead gained so early until the finish of the contest

The Kansas City Star (page 8)
Flynn fough doggedly. His determination was admirable—it always is—his recuperation after that second round showed the virility of the man. The crowd saw all that and probably no one had any desire to rob Flynn of the tribute that was due him. . . .

1914-03-03 Battling Levinsky Vs Fred McKay
The Brooklyn Daily Eagle (page 18)
Battling Levinsky, Dan Morgan's aspirant for heavyweight honors, added another win to his long list last night at the Broadway Sporting Club, when he easily defeated Fred McKay in the main event of ten rounds. Levinsky was the master of the situation from the tap of the gong in the first round and dealt out severe punishment to McKay, having him all but out at the bell in the last round.

1914-03-07 Battling Levinsky Vs Jack Keating
I couldn't find reports that gave any detail

1914-03-09 Battling Levinsky Vs Jim Coffey
New-York Tribune (page 10)
"Battling" Levinsky had a slight advantage over Jim Coffey, in ten round of furious, exciting boxing at Madison Square Garden last night, but the Dublin boy showed an improvement in his work, which, if continues, will lead him toward the top of his class with giant strides
The Standard Union (page 10)
In a slashing bout at Madison Square Garden last night, Jimmy Coffey, the Dublin giant, evened the score with Battling Levinsky, outboxing his plucky rival, who was forced to take heavy punishment
The Brooklyn Daily Eagle (page 20)
Jim Coffey, the Dublin Gianed, earned a draw with Battling Levinsky at the Garden Athletic Club last nigh, this being the third meeting of the two men. Coffey showed vast improvement over his proceeding two attempts, and for a time it looked as though he would knock out the giant killer.

1914-03-10 Jack Dillon Vs Jack Lester
Denver Post (page 13)
(By Jack Wilson.)
THE heavies performed at the Colorado Athletic club last night. As a result two knockouts were scored in nineteen minutes of battling which were scheduled for twenty-five. Jack Dillon, recently a middleweight, now a light heavyweight aspirant, but a real champion from all angles, stopped Jack Lester of California in ten rounds. He had the big Californian "sprawled" five times before the end came in the teneth, when a blood-besmeared towel went sailing across the ring, denoting to Referee Tommy McDonnel that the handlers in Lester's corner believed that things had gone about far enough. Lester was on the floor, and the record book will give credit to the Hoosier lad of a "knock-out."

1914-03-14 Battling Levinsky Vs Tim O'Neil
Pittburgh Daily Post (best I could find for this one)
PHILADELPHIA, March 14.—Battling Levinsky of this city had a shade the better of Tim O'Neill of Chicago after six rounds of rough boxing at the National Athletic Club tonight before a big crowd that packed the hall. Both men seemed inclined to make a wrestling match of the affair, which did not meet with the approval of the fans.

1914-03-17 Jack Dillon Vs Dick Gilbert
Hot Springs New Era
Dillon took things easy for the first three rounds. He was holding himself in. It was not really until the fifth that Dillon seemed to come out of his trance, and then he received a jolt alongside the head that shook him, which was followed by another in the short ribs and the third wallop also landed on his dome of though. Needless to say, Mr Gilbert was delivering these drives and the crowd went wild. Outside of the fifth round Dillon had the lead Gilbert had difficulty in getting by Dillon's straight left. The men were clinched almost repeatedly. Gilbert covered up weel in the clinches and the blows that Dillon landed when clinched either hit Gilber's gloves or his arms—that is, majority of them did. Gilver put up a good bout, and the tenth round was a "pippin". Meeting in the center of the ring, both men opened up the bombardment and stood toe to toe. They fought in this manner for fully two minutes and pademomium broke loose. Neither men would give an inch. The bell soudned, ending the fight, with them still whalling away at one another.

1914-03-17 Batttling Levinsky Vs Sailor Fred Fritts
The Standard Union (page 12)
Although Battling Levinsky can add another victory to his already long string to-day, he came uncomfortably close last evening to hearing the fatal count of the referee in his battle with Sailor Fritt's at the Broadway Sporting Club.
"Dumb" Dan's chief meal ticket was saved from a viit to slumberland in the early round only through his own efficient ring generalship, and the Sailor's lack of the same.

1914-03-23 Jack Dillon Vs George KO Brown
I won't type any of this up as I can't find any local reports. But it was a slow bout that Dillon won easilly.

1914-03-23 Battling Levinsky Vs Bob Moha
Levinsky had alledgely been ill, and Moha seems to have won convincingly, not particularly detailed reports, Moha did draw blood.

 

I suppose this is directed at me, because of what I said in post #35.

So I will ask you... do you honestly think, that boxers with 200+ fight careers back then took part in gruellig wars every other week, and that there wasn't (in some cases) some kind of understanding to "live and let live"... so everybody could make a living, without getting too banged up and injured? Of course not every fight was "go easy" affairs - far from it. But is it completely ridiculous to suspect, that many fights between journeymen, whose only ambition was to make enough money to support their families, were of this nature?

 

Most fights now aren't grueling wars, do they also have an understanding?

They also tended to take easy fights between harder ones, and a lot of shorter fights.

Maybe journeyman with a lot of fights did something like that, but we were talking about champions and ATGs

 

You're right... most fights today aren't grueling wars. But how many fights do you see these days, where both boxers are thrown out for not even trying? I can't even remember, when I last saw a fight like that! In the "good old days", this happened lots of times.

And if you want to talk about champions and ATGs - yes, some of them were involved in such fights as well.

 

Time to buy a dictionary and look up the word fatal.

 

That would have been 13 not 14 to tie the record.

 

You are. The 12 rd limit was crooked Suleiman s doing after Kim. The first was I believe Jones vs McCrory in March 1983.

 

Crazy ass posts by my friend Bbukkakes! I still laugh at yr Leonard/Tilden joke. But these ideas of yrs are waaaaaay the **** out there. Chaaaaalie Cheswick like out there.